Naim ibl

Hi,

I haven't been listening to a pair in years, but by memory:

Ups: Extremely nice looks, great build quality, small footprint, close to wall placement, clarity, PR&T, fun factor, transparency and upgrade-friendliness.

Downs: Scarce deep bass, scarce imaging, having being voiced 25 years ago for vinyl and being occasionally a little shouty with modern electronics.

Present or past owners of IBLs please elaborate and/or correct.

(On the other hand, a pair of n-Sats is as difficult to find, even prettier for a stand mount, and is much more balanced for today's listening. This I know for sure, having owned four pairs and still thinking of myself as an idiot for having sold them)

Max

I used IBLs very successfully on the end of a CDS2, 82 and 250. I certainly wouldn't use them with a lesser system, which they would show up mercilessly. Properly fed, they are superb speakers. They need to be hard up against a very solid brick wall. 

My happiest IBL days were with a nait XS and FC2 fronted by a LP12,Valhalla, non-Cirkus, Ittok LVII and A&R p77. They were also very good with Nat03, this time with a HC on the XS. I found no amount of amplification or CD player upgrades could help me with CD.

They are an all-time favourite of mine. Just can't live with 'em. Ymmv

Chris

I love IBLs! - I run a pair of Naim refurbished IBL2s on the end of 500 system and it's amazing how well they respond to system upgrades. My listening room is very small with solid brick walls so ideal for IBLs - I used to have SL2s and (in this room) they always sounded slightly overblown - the IBLs seem to suit the space way better. I think Massimo's summation is pretty good although I use both digital and vinyl sources and i can't say that i have been troubled by 'only voiced for vinyl' concerns. I'd also like to emphasise just how quick these speakers can sound, bass is amazingly fast and well controlled and on the end of a 500 (in a small room) they go as deep as I need them to!

If you can locate a nice clean pair (ideally mark 2), drive them properly and situate them correctly then they are a total audio bargain for sure

The IBL works best on a top quality system fronted by something like a fully loaded pre-cirkus LP12 - which is funnily enough exactly how it was designed.  It complements the Sondek front-end perfectly.  With a modern digital front end the cracks begin to show in places and on some music, and here I have found the n-Sat to be preferable.

Contrary to some of the above, one of the most fun systems i ever put together was in my tiny office, IBL very close against a solid wall with CD5XS/FC2X/NaitXS/SC2. This system was as crazy in its selection of boxes as it was crazy good at playing music. It was made up of parts i was not using in my main system and the IBL was an itch i needed to scratch. Trouble was it sounded better (more enjoyable) than the CDS3/282 Shahinian Arc's  and so the little system got all the use. Ended up using it for about 6 months until one of the IBL drivers went squeaky and the speakers retired

I agree with Richard that a pre Cirkus LP12 with Ittok upward would be a lovely partner for the IBL, as i use one now with SL2.

I've recently been trying out a replacement for my MK1 IBLs which I've had for about 12 years now. The replacements would have set me back around £3.5k but I've now put the IBLs back and I'm turning my thoughts back to the DR upgrade for my 2014 250.2 and maybe a Kore for the LP12. My dealer keeps referring to them as the limiting factor in my system but having spent a good few days with the £5k Canalis Cambria I'm now of the opinion that he's talking rubbish, which is a shame as he's usually quite objective and accurate in my experience.

If space is limited, which mine is, and you want a speaker that can be used hard up against the wall then it's difficult to imagine how anything can compete on purely value for money terms. They do accurately portray bass notes but don't expect them to give you that physical kick that a larger speaker can. I've found I adjusted to it and now putting in earth shaking bass leaves me a bit cold after the novelty wears off. Bottom line, they connect musically. They'll stay with you a long way up the upgrade path too. I've gone from Nait2 to 282/HCDR/250.2 via many steps and they've kept up by displaying all that the amps can offer along the way.

BTW, I used to have Rega Kytes, followed by Rega ELA. They were ok but not in the same league as the IBLs by a large order of magnitude.

BR

Mark

Hi Mark - I have some sympathy with your views here. The accepted wisdom seems to be that IBLs are best served by old school Naim / Linn but my experience is that they respond tremendously well to new school Naim / Linn - i have Radikal, Keel, NDAC / 555, DR'ed everything, Superlumina etc. and they just keep getting better and better. It sounds like I'm in a similar boat to you in that I have to have a solution which works 'up against the wall' and not overwhelm the room - given these constraints i'm not aware of any better alternatives although if anyone has any winning ideas let me know!

That's interesting, even encouraging, James. You've taken yours even further along the upgrade path and they've stayed the course. I doubt if I'll get to reference level but I may consider active with 2 x 250. I did run them active for a while with an IXO and 2 x 180. The IXO was hugely susceptible to RF interference though and I suffered from some hideous hum issues on occasion so went back to passive. When it was working properly though, it was stunning. I'm sure a Snaxo/HC with another 250 would surpass that significantly. Naim will no longer service the crossovers either which would be a good reason to consider active should that ever become an issue.

As a long-term IBL user, let me throw my hat into the ring.

IBL's offer a musical experience which can be quite wonderful. If you are willing to sacrifice the low end for a bass which is fast, tuneful and musically correct (as an ex-bass player I think I know what I am talking about) then you might have to audition a lot of speakers before you hear something else as good.

The "secrets" of the IBL are (1) like the SBL, they need to be against a solid wall (2) they respond to improvements in sources and amplification (3) in my opinion, they are not stuck in some 80s time warp. Mine are fabulous with my streamer and turntable (4) heresy I know but they also work with non-Salisbury manufactured electronics.

In many ways they seem to be the "forgotten" Naim speaker. They offer a seamless musical performance from punk to classical and have an ability to draw you into the music which is a rare capability.

There are other speakers out there that are better but if space is a consideration then the IBL offers a performance / cost ratio that is tough to beat.  

I have said elsewhere that my pair might have a new home soon but I am going to have to triple the value of the IBL to purchase my next speaker. That is another story for another thread.

Thanks guy very interesting to hear you comments ,would love to hear them for real as I have the very system they were designed on,thanks for replys

I will check with the factory for the IBL driver availability and their replacement cost. ( if they still support the product )

I recall a pair of IBL drivers were 1600$USD a few years back.

I got to hear them at my dealer fronted by Naimed LP12 but he had to replace them with more modern speakers for one of his customer coming in for an LP12 demo. They definitely had an old school sound but I loved it.

In my experience I have heard nothing for the price better than a Linn LP12/Naim combination with IBL's .  Given a small room and solid wall with speaker placement against the wall, they are unbeatable.  Fast, fast, fast with great timing and absolutely on-pitch bass (the type you hear in the concert hall--not deep and boomy as in most non Naim speakers).  I have had mine for over 20 years and never had any problems.  My dealer adjusts the torque on the speakers every few years and each upgrade makes them sound better.  I must disagree with Richard Dane regarding his pre Cirques comments.  Upgrading to the Linn Cirques together with a Keel and Radical has made the sound come even more alive.  More dark backround, much more harmonic richness in strings and voice.  In my opinion each upgrade leads to greater satisfaction.  They are a speaker that allows one to enjoy the balanced complexities of human emotion present in the musical experience.  

At present I run my IBLs active with two 250s, a 52 preamp and an ARO with Linn Aktiva and Linto.  A marvel of a speaker.  Find them second hand in good condition and they are a delight and a great bargain.

Ira

We've had IBLs for quite a few years. The big negative is that they don't do scale, and they can be quite cold sounding. We had them at the end of a 552/300 system and also the smaller system of a Nait 2 both with top quality front ends. 

The positives are that they are fast, and have a very open mid range.  At one time we had in the second system: IBL mk2, Kans, and n-sats. For us Kans were no1 followed by n-sat with IBL a reasonable way behind. kans and n sat offer a sweeter sound and a slightly more fruitier tone. 

It all depends on what you like, especially in speakers. 

Best regards

p.s I would add that now having owned late model Isobariks for a number of years, or speakers that deliver true scale (e.g Kudos Titan, Naim Ovator 600, Sonus Faber, B&W 800 etc), if the room allows, it makes a lot of sense to change the speaker to a full range one at NAP200 level or above. I simply don't agree with the notion of spending mega bucks amps on shoe box speakers. You just won't hear the scale and the ease of bass extension and the feeling of true bass from small speakers. Doesn't matter how powerful the amp.  So after 25 years of mega bucks amps into smallish speakers, about 5 years ago, I realised I made a mistake and you now advise a balanced approach. Obviously if your room is tiny (and you want to spend mega bucks on amps) by all means choose a favourite micro speaker, but personally now having been there and done that, you will never hear the full potential of your amps and expensive source if your speaker is missing out the low end and scale (I think you are getting 50% what your equipment can give).

Lets remember at least with Naim amps you can hear what great speakers can do (big or small), not sure you can do that with all other brands, I think something to do with the exceptional current delivery of Naim amps.

p.s an honourable exception to the small speaker rule are a number of Sonus Fabers, Shahinian's, and Epos ES14.

Best regards and good listening

I can understand this dev, in the late seventies I ran imf 80s with bridged mono electrocompaniet class a monos with a meridian 103 pre and have yet to recreate the same all these years later .Like you say large speakers are the only ones that provide that but wife doesn't agree , regards martin

So where do you see this one ending then, Martin, given the above?

Chris

Not sure Chris ,my system sounds really engaging even with humble kytes etc ,some fun times ahead looking witch  way to go ,regards martin

As Dev says "Big Sound" requires massive amount of bucks and many large sounding speakers including some that Dev recommends I find slow and emotionally uninvolving (I have never heard the Titans).  If you can find a pair of IBL's in good condition and can ignore its shortcomings, it is a speaker that "speaks music."  BTW Dev I had Kans on home demo and preferred and purchased IBLs.  We all hear differently and value different aspects of the musical experience.  

Ira

I also used to own Kans (MK1) fronted by Nait1 and then 32.5/HC/250. They were something special but I don't recall them being "better" than IBLs. Different, yes and in some respects sharing strengths such as speed and musicality but for me they didn't produce the same accuracy (as opposed to quantity or depth) of bass that I'm getting now from my IBLs. The front end has come on in the intervening 30 years of course! And as for value for money...try finding a good set of Kans for comparable cost vs IBLs. I've seen them going on the auction site for around £100 !!! For me that has to be one of the Hi Fi bargains of the moment and worth a punt. If you don't get on with them you can sell them on and stand to lose only shipping costs.

BTW, I replaced the disintegrating grills for about £75. There's probably a slight performance penalty for doing that due to the fact that the internal cut out on the originals hasn't been exactly replicated but I couldn't hear any difference and they look much refreshed.

Good luck anyway and enjoy your experiments. Good as Kytes are, I'm sure you'll be delighted by what IBLs, Kans or N-Sats can bring to the party.

Great comments everyone and a good discussion. Ira; just for clarity my current favourite large speakers are Isobariks, Sonus Faber Olympica, Kudos Titan 808, Ovator 800 (in the right room). I prefer late Kans to IBL2, just for a sense of warmth that they bring, IBL's are more clinical in way. 

Good listening

This has really been a valuable discussion of musical preferences, indicating how some folks like a larger sound or sense of warmth as Dev puts it.  As for myself as a good deal of my listening is to string quartets, I value speed, accuracy, pitch and especially balance.  I downgraded from my Maggies to go for the more accurate sound of the IBLs.

BTW so nice to hear that no one has raised the subjective assessment of Soundstage as a desirable aspect of musical reproduction.  A friend recently got me a first row seat at the Metropolitan Opera, just to the left of the conductor.  I couldn't pinpoint the cellos amidst the wall of sound coming from the orchestra. 

Ira

Dear Ira

It's funny you mention soundstage. My wife and I listen to add types of music: Indie, Jazz, Drum & Bass, Indian and Western Classical.

Recently we have heard a multiple of systems to get a feel for what we are missing (if anything) from our Phonosophie/Aro/NAT01/CDS1/HDX/DAC/XPS ->52/Scap/250 -> Briks.  Our second system has UnitiQute feeding 72/Hicap/140 -> Kans.

We heard the Statement Pre and Power into Ovator S800, also Audio Research Ref 5/Ref 75 into Sonus Faber Olympica 3/Wilson Sabrina/Magneplanar.  I plan on writing an essay on the findings, as I have also heard a 552/500 into both Kudo Titan 808 and PMC speakers. We have also heard some John Howes Modified Quad 2 amps in to Voxativ Single Driver speakers. 

All of this just to learn and understand more about audio as it stands today.

It's great that you have such a good appreciation of the live event as this is also a reference for us, recently we heard the organ at the Royal Albert Hall and the power and effortlessness was unbelievable. It reminded us of the statement and to an extent the sound of the Isobarik in some ways, but also the purity of the valves.

Best regards

Dev, I loved my Isobariks. I had two pairs. First a pair of Afromosia DMS then a Black PMS pair. I drove the PMS with three NAP 250's, two of which were the original bolt down case models which handled mid/bass left & right while the younger 250 looked after treble. Briks can vary from pair to pair. I was lucky and got two great sounding sets and would love to have the space to go back to them. One thing in common with the IBLs I found, neither were any good at   creating imaging. Maybe that was just how I had/have them situated but other than being able to distinguish broadly left to right the placing of instruments I've never experience what some people refer to as "holographic imaging" where you could place instruments and voices by depth as well as horizontally. Frankly I don't care about that as I don't believe it's that important. Just my opinion of course.

IMO Mark, IBLs can image quite well, they just need nothing between them.

Cheers, Chris