Musicality

SJB wrote:

"Does all live music innately have "musicality”?"

This is a strange one as replay components do not have a musicality by definition. Musicality is a gift found in good musicians who play music. It is altogether out of place as a description of replay components. At best replay components may reproduce the recorded or relayed music well enough not to rob the result of being evidence of the musicality of the performers.

ATB from George

An interesting question.  I cannot remember ever using the term 'musicality' on the forum, but am well aware of its frequent use, and were I to use such a term, I do know what the term means to me.  When a system is musical, it primarily communicates the passion, and skill, of the musicians.  Not necessarily every last detail, nuance and texture, but the message is there, and to a degree that you don't care how good, or bad, the sound quality is.  You enjoy listening, and the music is what you hear, not the system.  When I listen to hifi, I don't want to be thinking about hifi, simple as that.  Yes, some systems reveal more detail than others, and if they do that in conjunction with delivering the impact of the music, then you're onto a winner; I feel that Naim delivers this for me.  

I think that a good majority of Naim’s production over the years has that ability to preserve the musicality of the performers.

One of the best is the Nait 5i, even though it hardly competes on such articial aspects as stereo pin-pointing and separation, both of which tend to diminish the musicality contained in the players [and singers] efforts, and divert attention to the actual sonic quality of the recording and the replay system ....

George, I think you nailed it.  "Musicality" if attributed to a music replay system (and recording process, for that matter?), reflects the ability to convey, undiminished and without distraction, the "musicality" of the performer(s).  Now "musicality" of the performance - I can imagine what that must mean, but not being a musician i hesitate to define it in words.

Charlie

Hi-fi speak really. Must mean something different to different people.

Dear Charlie,

Musicality is that ability in musical performers to let the listener commune directly, and compellingly with the composer, his or her imagination and inspiration. A musical performance lets you understand [to some extent at least] what drove the composer to write the music in the first place.

I think we may have just uncovered another secret. The real “source” in music is the composer, and the musician who plays it is no less part of the listening chain than the replay equipment in considering music in the home! 

ATB from George

If an audio component is referred to as musical, it means that it emphasizes the fundamental aspects of music making over the non-musical sonic artifacts (soundstaging, imaging, detail recovery).

"The first and most important thing is that it must convey the sense of the voice or overall timbre of the band, orchestra or solo musician. The second is to be able to preserve the natural melodic flow or motion of the music over time."

from "A Meditation on Musicality and Music-Lovers" (6 Moons website, well-worth reading)

To me, "musicality" in terms of listening on a hifi, is the difference between a system which "explodes" the music into the audio equivalent of an "exploded diagram" and a system which plays the actual music.
Some hifi systems are good at presenting an "exploded diagram" of the sound (analytical), others convey the actual music as a whole. (Musical).
I believe Naim to be good at the latter.

Since a long lad I have mostly been affected by ear worms" either from hearing something on the radio or a jingle from the TV , I would literally be unable to get to sleep because of something going around playing in my head.

ear worms became useful when I wanted to learn how to play an instrument as I found it easy to find the right note and as my hifi has become more sophisticated my ear worms have grown to be very detailed and nuanced of tone... musicality is I believe the primary source for these worms.

This has been a good discussion, with many good ideas expressed.  I confess I do not care for the word "musicality."  But whatever the word,  it seems there is (or can be) something in music which goes beyond the sound we hear and "connects" with us in some spiritual or emotional way.  

George, I have often wondered if the composer is in fact the "source" for music, or whether (at least sometimes) they "channel" the music from somewhere "beyond."  Of course, in improvisational performance, the musician is "composing" on the fly.  And sometimes these talented people seem to be "tuned in."  It is clear that music is universally appreciated and shared among human cultures planet wide.

So (although I do not care for the word, but in keeping on thread) perhaps "musicality" is the quality of conveying this spirit in the music to which we naturally connect?

Charlie

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

SJB wrote:

"Does all live music innately have "musicality”?"

This is a strange one as replay components do not have a musicality by definition. Musicality is a gift found in good musicians who play music. It is altogether out of place as a description of replay components. At best replay components may reproduce the recorded or relayed music well enough not to rob the result of being evidence of the musicality of the performers.

ATB from George

George, is musicality a property of musicians or a property of music? Can musicality be found in a musical score? Is it a property of written music or played music? I am a lame duck in this area, I cannot even read a score. If musicality was a property of (perhaps certain) performances, different replay systems might be able to preserve such property to different degrees. From this angle, saying that a replay system "has musicality" should be understood as a shortcut for actually saying that that system is good at preserving the musicality of ... the recording which, in turn, could be said to have musicality if it was good at preserving the musicality of the original performance. Best, nbpf

blythe posted:

To me, "musicality" in terms of listening on a hifi, is the difference between a system which "explodes" the music into the audio equivalent of an "exploded diagram" and a system which plays the actual music.
Some hifi systems are good at presenting an "exploded diagram" of the sound (analytical), others convey the actual music as a whole. (Musical).
I believe Naim to be good at the latter.

Does this somehow imply that analytical systems are better for studying and understanding music (for seeing the exploded view) whereas musical systems are better for enjoying music? But understanding can be source of joy and, possibly, the other way round. I am confused. Best, nbpf 

nbpf posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

SJB wrote:

"Does all live music innately have "musicality”?"

This is a strange one as replay components do not have a musicality by definition. Musicality is a gift found in good musicians who play music. It is altogether out of place as a description of replay components. At best replay components may reproduce the recorded or relayed music well enough not to rob the result of being evidence of the musicality of the performers.

ATB from George

George, is musicality a property of musicians or a property of music? Can musicality be found in a musical score? Is it a property of written music or played music? I am a lame duck in this area, I cannot even read a score. If musicality was a property of (perhaps certain) performances, different replay systems might be able to preserve such property to different degrees. From this angle, saying that a replay system "has musicality" should be understood as a shortcut for actually saying that that system is good at preserving the musicality of ... the recording which, in turn, could be said to have musicality if it was good at preserving the musicality of the original performance. Best, nbpf

It is a quality in the performers. Music is music. Some music we love and some we [as individuals] do not.

It is certainly true that some replay systems preserve the ability of the listener to perceive the musicality of the performers better than others.

If it is a short-cut to thus say that one system has musicality and another does not [or has less], then it is a lazy short-cut. It is like saying that a Formula One Racing car is responsible for the skill of the driver.

ATB from George

A system can be detailed and musical. I have such a system. :-) The term musical merely means you want to listen to music on the system. A system where you think "enough already" ain't musical. This is commonly found on systems with a thin, etched, harsh sound that passes for detail.  It grates on the ears and ain' t nice.  After hearing real detail on top systems you realize what is truly in the groove of the LP or the bits going to your DAC.  Its delicate and nuanced and sounds just like the real thing.  I always figured a system that reproduced an acoustic piano and drums well would make something tacky like B52 s Rock lobster sound unlistenable. Wrong, both are great, just don't let the neighbours catch you with your air guitar.....er, musicality meter.

Musicality strikes me as a quality of the listener as much as the replay/performance.

I am frequently aware that my appreciation of music is often very different to others. I appear incapable of producing an analytical review of my system, just comments that the music flows or sounds 'magical' or that I was absorbed or excited by the track. My appreciating of music/replay is based on largely emotional qualities therefore. I also read the reviews of others (largely in this place) where their appreciation of music is more technical, more based on the how and why than the outcome. This is not a criticism. These people hugely enjoy their HiFi perhaps because it sounds great (hence threads like 'best track for PraT' or 'best audtion tracks') rather than how it makes them feel. This is a slight exaggeration of the polarities but I hope people get the drift. My brother and I operate at each extremes in fact.

Getting to the point, I think 'musicality' is likely to mean very different things; it is not an inherent quality I suspect. For me I think it means natural, connecting me with the mood and intention of the performer.

Bruce

Musicality to me means: Do I want to get my Fender and want to play along with the song. That"s all.

Just the diference between "Round earth and "Flat Earth.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

It is certainly true that some replay systems preserve the ability of the listener to perceive the musicality of the performers

No. I'm calling bullshit here. A system can preserve a listeners ability to perceive? You may be overly engrossed in what you're writing, or maybe I'm reading this wrong. But you did say it is certainly true.

Dear Bruce,

If we all chose to define words on an individual basis then no accurate communication would be possible until we have made clear how we, as individuals, define the words we use! Musicality is defined in dictionaries, so that when used according to the dictionary definition we can understand what the writer means. Otherwise all bets are off. 

I think we like to ascribe human qualities to machines, but the truth is that musicality is a human talent that given to some but not all performing musicians! No machine can have what is a human talent. A machine may be able to convey the musicality that a musician is blessed with. Some replay does this well, and some does it less well. I would think that it is a correct description of replay that conveys musicality to say that this replay conveys the musicality found in this or that musician’s performance. Words such as involving and communicative would seem appropriate [according to standard definitions found in dictionaries], rather than ascribing the musicality to the replay ...

ATB from George

George

Understood, but do you not feel the listener is a factor? Would we all equally identify musicality in a performance?

I'm also aware we should not just talking about classical music here-also 'machine music' where the sounds are created electronically for example. Do you feel that can have 'musicality'? In such a case it would be the composition not the composer or performer.

joerand posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

It is certainly true that some replay systems preserve the ability of the listener to perceive the musicality of the performers

No. I'm calling bullshit here. A system can preserve a listeners ability to perceive? You may be overly engrossed in what you're writing, or maybe I'm reading this wrong. But you did say it is certainly true.

Certainly not Bull ----, Joe. Some replay is sufficiently incompetent to make it hard or nigh impossible for the listener to perceive the musicality in the performers. It is a simple enough concept to grasp, so perhaps you are correct in suggesting that you were “reading this wrong.” Who knows?

ATB from George

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

George

Understood, but do you not feel the listener is a factor? Would we all equally identify musicality in a performance?

Dear Bruce,

As individual listeners we all have different tastes. For example one listener might really have a good comprehension of the musicality of Helmut Walcha performing a Bach Fugue, while another might struggle to see what the first was considering to be so great. Equally the listener who comprehended the Bach performed by Walcha might struggle to comprehend the musicality that Justin Bieber demonstrates in his very successful recordings. Listeners are individual, but music is music, and some of it communicates at a more or less universal level. Indeed it is curious that listener appreciation across widely diverging musical styles shows that personal taste and performer musicality are two different things. It is quite possible for a musician to display immense musicality in performance and be quite unappreciated for his gift by a large proportion of music lovers.

ATB from George

PS: I see that you have enlarged your post to include machine made music. Can the performance of music by a machine have musicality? Now that is a philosophical question that could take hundreds of words to answer as we try to stretch the term musicality to encompass non-human performance! For example Mozart composed music that was designed to be performed on a sort of mechanical carillon. If there is any musicality in the result it must be down to the human setting up of the machine, but it seems even then doubtful in my view. This is different to noting that the composition contains great music or a musical inspiration of genius!

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

joerand posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

It is certainly true that some replay systems preserve the ability of the listener to perceive the musicality of the performers

No. I'm calling bullshit here. A system can preserve a listeners ability to perceive? You may be overly engrossed in what you're writing, or maybe I'm reading this wrong. But you did say it is certainly true.

Certainly not Bull ----, Joe. Some replay is sufficiently incompetent to make it hard or nigh impossible for the listener to perceive the musicality in the performers. It is a simple enough concept to grasp, so perhaps you are correct in suggesting that you were “reading this wrong.” Who knows?

ATB from George

My musical enjoyment has no supercilious pretenses. I can get musicality from my TV, my boombox, my car stereo, or my Naim gear (in no particular order). Just depends on my mood and the song that's playing at a given time. Maybe I'm easily musicated, or just fortunate.

Dear Joe,

I quite agree that even very simple musical replay is capable [in many cases] of conveying the musicality of the performers. I don’t there is anything strange about that. 

ATB from George

I read somewhere in a scientific journal - written by some professors in the philosophy of music - that musicality is similar to mathematics, as much as math can be observed to exist outside of our own doing and reasoning, so to could musicality - along with similar symmetry ,abstract and constructional qualities.  With the right formula you can find musicality in anything and everything.   Music of the spheres and beyond....