Melco and Sonos ?

Hi James,

Whilst some people are trialing them, I'm not sure if there are many Melco owners out there yet.  I have seen the Melco and I understand it can be used to serve music both via Ethernet and by USB.  I think I am correct in saying that the Sonos system works by accessing music from an Ethernet network and can access music stored on a computer or NAS.   If Sonos does pull music from a computer/NAS, then you will be able to access music stored on a Melco.  I also believe you can put the Melco in-line between a computer/NAS and your network player , in this case Sonos, and it can somehow 'clean' the stream by reducing network noise and improve the sound of stuff stored elsewhere.  I understand the Melco works best when you store music directly on it though.

This, I believe, is the theory anyway!

Given the price of the Melco it seems like a bit an out of balance combination. But sure of course the Melco can feed a Sonos - it's in the context just an advanced nas with Ethernet pass through.

As already mentioned the music which should sound best is best stored on the Melco the rest can be stored on secondary connected storage or storage somewhere else in the network. In both cases you will still benefit from the benefits of the Melco.

As for the benefits to unfold keep in mind that the streamer needs to be close to the Melco as you directly connect both for the best result. Finally the Melco could even be used as a source for a dac, at least that's what is published as possibility.

For additional information on the Melco (but not specifically in connection with Sonos) you could also check http://forum.minimserver.com/showthread.php?tid=2032 Best, nbpf

Cheers Jason / Bert for the replies - It's going to be used as a USB source in my main lounge system to feed my amp. The interest with Sonos and whether i could use the Melco was just in regard to rationalising my music storage rather than needing to use my NAS as well (which holds my main iTunes library that my Sonos system presently uses).

Now just need to decide black or silver 

nbpf posted:

For additional information on the Melco (but not specifically in connection with Sonos) you could also check http://forum.minimserver.com/showthread.php?tid=2032 Best, nbpf

Cheers 

james n posted:

Cheers Jason / Bert for the replies - It's going to be used as a USB source in my main lounge system to feed my amp. The interest with Sonos and whether i could use the Melco was just in regard to rationalising my music storage rather than needing to use my NAS as well (which holds my main iTunes library that my Sonos system presently uses).

Now just need to decide black or silver 

For a change go for silver, these black boxes are a bit dull....

I don't have black boxes anymore (not so easy to hide purchases amongst the sea of black and green...) but black may still discreetly slot into my racks without any questions... I did have an n-Sub in the lounge for 3 days before it was noticed so i may get away with it 

nbpf posted:

For additional information on the Melco (but not specifically in connection with Sonos) you could also check http://forum.minimserver.com/showthread.php?tid=2032 Best, nbpf

Well reading that thread, there really is some misinformation. There is NO SUCH MEANINGFUL THING as TCP data jitter at the network level for UPnP media .. TCP uses a different system of windowing and sequencing rather than a stream of timed datagrams (as with UDP as used with voip telephony for example).. therefore for someone to mention one of the key advantages of the Melco is reducing the data  jitter in the network has me scratching my head and erring to the suspicious. I do hope the poster had misunderstood what he had been told.

BTW a Sonos can work directly with a NAS as a file player and it also connect to a UPnP Media Server running on a NAS or elsewhere 

Yes Simon - quite a lot of misinformation around these things at a working level. Interesting thread so far though and it'd given me plenty of reading. The most interesting thing i've seen on the Melco was Paul Millers measurements in HFN on the Melco and the results via USB with various DAC's. 

Will be interested to hear how it sounds James. Currently thinking of a Mac Mini but don't know whether to save harder for a Melco instead.

Mayor West posted:

Will be interested to hear how it sounds James. Currently thinking of a Mac Mini but don't know whether to save harder for a Melco instead.

It's only my view of course, but I think there are much better things to save for than a Melco NAS.  My view is that Melco are either misguided and believe their product is justifiable, or they perceive high-end audio consumers as idiots with too much money, and who have a phobia of personal computers.  They have produced a NAS with a few gimmicks in a casing that resembles hifi, and claims not have any of the inherent problems that people associate with computers.  Simple as that for me.   Most NAS drives don't have the problems people associate with computers, and that's because they are generally given minimal work to do, but underlying technology and components are by no means far removed from a low-end PC.  

SongStream posted:

Mayor West posted:

Will be interested to hear how it sounds James. Currently thinking of a Mac Mini but don't know whether to save harder for a Melco instead.

It's only my view of course, but I think there are much better things to save for than a Melco NAS.  My view is that Melco are either misguided and believe their product is justifiable, or they perceive high-end audio consumers as idiots with too much money, and who have a phobia of personal computers.  They have produced a NAS with a few gimmicks in a casing that resembles hifi, and claims not have any of the inherent problems that people associate with computers.  Simple as that for me.   Most NAS drives don't have the problems people associate with computers, and that's because they are generally given minimal work to do, but underlying technology and components are by no means far removed from a low-end PC.  

I agree that slogans like "audio grade SSD" -- together with almost inexistent technical documentation -- sound a bit suspicious. On the other hand there are a number of positive reports, among others from users with a rather skeptical attitude (e.g., the OP of the thread I have mentioned who is also the main developer of Minimserver, I believe) and from Naim users with very revealing systems. Setting up a server that provides the functionalities of a Melco is certainly not very difficult. But the claim of the Melco team is that they have taken special care to power supply, isolation and other aspects that are believed to have a significant impact on sound quality. Also, they have put the hardware in a nice case which is not something that can be taken for granted these days. If they had done their homework, I would have no problem with their products being expensive. This would also be an opportunity for other companies to provide more affordable devices. My problem with the Melcos is that I am not convinced that they have done their homework. What I would have liked to see are user upgradeable SSDs, first class S/PDIF outputs (besides Ethernet and USB), certification for at least one open OS and a wireless card: I do not see the point of being able to directly connect the Melco to a streamer if the Melco itself needs, in turn, to be wired to the router although virtually no data transfer has to take place at replay time apart from that through the direct connection to the streamer. Maybe I am missing something obvious. Best, nbpf

nbpf posted:

I do not see the point of being able to directly connect the Melco to a streamer if the Melco itself needs, in turn, to be wired to the router although virtually no data transfer has to take place at replay time apart from that through the direct connection to the streamer. Maybe I am missing something obvious. Best, nbpf

It allows the pass-through of Internet radio, Spotify Connect, Tidal, etc to the streamer.

I've had Macs and various Dacs for the last 8 years or so (including a diversion into UPnP streaming via Linn and Naim boxes) and having played with all manner of software and hardware tweaks i'm happier these days if someone else has done all the hard work for me and it's all sorted straight out of the box - hence the appeal of the Melco as a USB source. 

I have heard the cheaper of the two Melco units used in the context of a Naim 500 series system, and I heard improvement characteristics similar in nature to the addition of a super lumina cable.  Not quite as pronounced as the super lumina effect perhaps, but there was a discernible difference with a quieter background and improvements in vocals and high frequency control.

Unfortunately, it was a very quick demo but it would be enough for me to be interested in investigating it later on in the future when funds permit!

I'm not so sure how it would perform with electrics further down the chain and whether it would be as effective.  I get the feeling it would be most beneficial with very sensitive equipment, and where there may ordinarily be noise on the network the music is being served on.   I felt it certainly worth further investigation at 500 series level.

Andrew Everard posted:

nbpf posted:

I do not see the point of being able to directly connect the Melco to a streamer if the Melco itself needs, in turn, to be wired to the router although virtually no data transfer has to take place at replay time apart from that through the direct connection to the streamer. Maybe I am missing something obvious. Best, nbpf

It allows the pass-through of Internet radio, Spotify Connect, Tidal, etc to the streamer.

 It does, and admirably. 

Andrew Everard posted:

nbpf posted:

I do not see the point of being able to directly connect the Melco to a streamer if the Melco itself needs, in turn, to be wired to the router although virtually no data transfer has to take place at replay time apart from that through the direct connection to the streamer. Maybe I am missing something obvious. Best, nbpf

It allows the pass-through of Internet radio, Spotify Connect, Tidal, etc to the streamer.

I see the point but this does not imply that a wireless card should not be in the box: It's good that the Melcos can be connected via cable but it is not good that they cannot be connected via wireless.

It is also the case that Internet radio, Spotify Connect, Tidal, etc. do not necessarily need a wired connection. I have just watched a live concert streamed from the DCH and I do not see any improvement when I switch from wireless to wired. Streaming 24/192 from a Rasperry Pi connected to the router to an iPad also works flawlessly on the 5GHz frequency.

James, which Melco model are you considering?

james n posted:

I've had Macs and various Dacs for the last 8 years or so (including a diversion into UPnP streaming via Linn and Naim boxes) and having played with all manner of software and hardware tweaks i'm happier these days if someone else has done all the hard work for me and it's all sorted straight out of the box - hence the appeal of the Melco as a USB source. 

I understand your point. I have been hoping for some time that Naim would come out with new, sleek low power servers. At a certain point, I have even considered buying a second hand Uniti Serve and installing Linux on it. From this viewpoint the Melcos are potentially interesting devices. But, as I said, I find the specification of the Melco not convincing. It is not a matter of price. But nowadays, I do not expect to see HDDs in a modern music server. And I expect to be able to replace a 500GB SSD with a 2TB SSD by myself if I wish to do so. And I am not sure that a device that consumes 60W contains state-of-the-art hardware. And, as I said, the technical documentation seems to be inexistent. All this is very sad but what can one do? 

Jason posted:

I have heard the cheaper of the two Melco units used in the context of a Naim 500 series system, and I heard improvement characteristics similar in nature to the addition of a super lumina cable. 

Jason, the improvements were with respect to what? What was the setup without Melco? Thanks, nbpf

nbpf posted:

Jason posted:

I have heard the cheaper of the two Melco units used in the context of a Naim 500 series system, and I heard improvement characteristics similar in nature to the addition of a super lumina cable. 

Jason, the improvements were with respect to what? What was the setup without Melco? Thanks, nbpf

nbpf,

Quieter backgrounds, better high frequency control and generally slightly more refined presentation with the Melco in place, as I say, akin to the sort of improvement a super lumina cable brings really.  It was only a quick demo, one track with it, one track without it, so difficult to quantify how much better - but there were differences.  IIRC, it was demoed with NDS, 555DR, 552/500 into Focal Sopra 1 (the stand mount).

Jason posted:

nbpf posted:

Jason posted:

I have heard the cheaper of the two Melco units used in the context of a Naim 500 series system, and I heard improvement characteristics similar in nature to the addition of a super lumina cable. 

Jason, the improvements were with respect to what? What was the setup without Melco? Thanks, nbpf

nbpf,

Quieter backgrounds, better high frequency control and generally slightly more refined presentation with the Melco in place, as I say, akin to the sort of improvement a super lumina cable brings really.  It was only a quick demo, one track with it, one track without it, so difficult to quantify how much better - but there were differences.  IIRC, it was demoed with NDS, 555DR, 552/500 into Focal Sopra 1 (the stand mount).

Thanks Jason! The reason I was asking is that, in another Melco thread, it was mentioned that the positive impact of the Melco on sound quality critically depends on the files to be replayed to be stored on the Melco. If the Melco is used as a bridge between a NAS and a streamer, some of the advantages are apparently lost. Thus, depending on which were exactly the setups with/without Melco, you might have heard an improvement that can be further improved or one that can partially vanish. This also partially explains my concerns about the upgradeability of the drives. Best, nbpf 

Graham Russell posted:

James, which Melco model are you considering?

Hi Graham - the N1A. 

Thanks for all the input folks - Will let you know how i get on 

James

I was sceptical about melco. I have a synology nas with dedicated power supply so was not convinced there would be any  improvement. I had a n1a on loan over xmas and there is a definite improvement, similar to a super lumina upgrade. This is in context of 552/500/ nds 2 x 555 and neat xl6. Suggest have a listen in your system.