Vinyl is where it's at???

As MDS I don't feel I can add anything to the points of view expressed above. I did have an interesting LP vs CD experience yesterday. I was listening to a friends system:

Garrard 401, Audio Note Arm > Audio Note Pre > Modded Quad 405 > Tannoy 15" DC in handmade cabinets.

Eikos CD.

The LP was superb, the CD was certainly not with certain material, female vocals for instance. One CD played was the Du Pre Elgar Cello Concerto, now this is something I have listened to many times, and the CD tonal flaws were evident .....but, the positive elements more than overcame them. I have never had a stronger emotional to the piece, I was very nearly in tears.

I am sure that I, like most here, can set up a demo to prove the contention the LP is better than CD ....or the reverse; based on the issue of mastering, as noted above by Eloise. But, my experience is that LP has generally given me a better more musical & emotional experience. That said my response to the Du Pre yesterday was stunning, and I will be even less dogmatic in future.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

As MDS I don't feel I can add anything to the points of view expressed above. I did have an interesting LP vs CD experience yesterday. I was listening to a friends system:

Garrard 401, Audio Note Arm > Audio Note Pre > Modded Quad 405 > Tannoy 15" DC in handmade cabinets.

Eikos CD.

The LP was superb, the CD was certainly not with certain material, female vocals for instance. One CD played was the Du Pre Elgar Cello Concerto, now this is something I have listened to many times, and the CD tonal flaws were evident .....but, the positive elements more than overcame them. I have never had a stronger emotional to the piece, I was very nearly in tears.

I am sure that I, like most here, can set up a demo to prove the contention the LP is better than CD ....or the reverse; based on the issue of mastering, as noted above by Eloise. But, my experience is that LP has generally given me a better more musical & emotional experience. That said my response to the Du Pre yesterday was stunning, and I will be even less dogmatic in future.

M

Interesting, M.  I've just ordered a copy of that CD to give it a try for myself.

Mike 

The CD [or ripped to iTunes] experience compared to LP is one that does bring out trenchant views.

It depends on the LP or CD. Years ago I had a CDS 2 feeding a 52 [etc], and also a simple Rega P3 with the Super Elys feeding the moving magnet boards in the 52 ...

Dire Strates “Brothers In Arms” was certainly better on LP, but all my collection of classical music was move involving on CD than the LPs the CDs gradually replaced.

There are many factors at play, and mostly in the software part - the LP or CD in question.

ATB from George

Hi Mike,

The copy was from the Sir John Barbarolli 10 CD box set.

I have a copy from a celebration of DuPre that I played this morning and failed to remind me of yesterdays experience. This morning I downloaded another copy from Qobuz ...but, fear that it was probably the system / room!

For info: The Eikos was playing into a Simaudio Moon DAC.

M

Dear George,

Although the Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms CD is marked as DDD in fact the mixing was analogue.

That double conversion for the CD (D to A and A to D) is one reason why the LP is better than the CD.  The mastering is also different for the LP; some tracks are different lengths - so it's not actually a valid comparison even though it's often represented as such.

Dear Huge,

A friend of mine visited with his original LP, and in those days I had a few CDs of pop music. My CD was a first issue, so that it at least seemed a reasonable comparison. After that we did make a comparison of LPs versus CD, and the recordings ranged from the 1920s to the 1990s and on classical not one single LP was as fine as the CD. Obviously on examples where I still had not parted with the LPs. All gone now exempt just two, kept because they were presents for tenth birthday ...

We listened also to quite a few of my friend’s Jazz recordings on CDs. ...

I bought the Rega P3 to transfer the LPs to CDs with a Philips CD recorder. I still have some of the transfers in iTunes as a rather fascinating comparison with the eventual commercial CD re-releases ... They are not obviously from LPs and have fooled a few, who thought they were commercial CDs!

ATB from George

Mr Underhill posted:

Hi Mike,

The copy was from the Sir John Barbarolli 10 CD box set.

I have a copy from a celebration of DuPre that I played this morning and failed to remind me of yesterdays experience. This morning I downloaded another copy from Qobuz ...but, fear that it was probably the system / room!

For info: The Eikos was playing into a Simaudio Moon DAC.

M

Thanks, M.  I know sometimes these are experiences-in-the-moment which are hard or impossible to repeat.  And my system is completely different to the one you mentioned. But a piece of music that has the potential to 'move' is always worth a punt.  I've ordered a hybrid SACD. It wasn't expensive (nice thing, usually, about CDs compared to vinyl) so not much of a gamble.

Mike 

Hi Mike,

Just finished organising the music into my filing system and am now playing it. This new master is excellent and beats the old version I have into a cocked hat. Unfortunately I set myself an 11pm watershed, as people have retired for tomorrow; so I am listening at a much reduced volume level .....but I am very hopeful. Let me know how you get on.

Martin

Mr Underhill posted:

Hi Mike,

Just finished organising the music into my filing system and am now playing it. This new master is excellent and beats the old version I have into a cocked hat. Unfortunately I set myself an 11pm watershed, as people have retired for tomorrow; so I am listening at a much reduced volume level .....but I am very hopeful. Let me know how you get on.

Martin

 

Will do. Amazon predicting I'll have it by the 26th.

Mike

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Huge,

A friend of mine visited with his original LP, and in those days I had a few CDs of pop music. My CD was a first issue, so that it at least seemed a reasonable comparison. After that we did make a comparison of LPs versus CD, and the recordings ranged from the 1920s to the 1990s and on classical not one single LP was as fine as the CD. Obviously on examples where I still had not parted with the LPs. All gone now exempt just two, kept because they were presents for tenth birthday ...

We listened also to quite a few of my friend’s Jazz recordings on CDs. ...

I bought the Rega P3 to transfer the LPs to CDs with a Philips CD recorder. I still have some of the transfers in iTunes as a rather fascinating comparison with the eventual commercial CD re-releases ... They are not obviously from LPs and have fooled a few, who thought they were commercial CDs!

ATB from George

 

I have a the 29th Anniversary edition in 24bit 88KHz that sounds pretty amazing (I didn't have an earlier version, not having been quite convinced by Dire Straits until having heard this)

Really, does anyone else feel the same way about the Hugo? Is it really that bad?

I couldn't see what all the fuss was about either.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

naim_nymph posted:

MDS posted:

J.N. posted:

Like Tony, I enjoy my digital and analogue sources. My CD player is akin to a diesel locomotive. It does a good, practical job and gives me a terrific amount of musical pleasure. My LP12 is akin to a messy, difficult, inefficient steam locomotive, having the ability to stir my blood and arouse the hairs on the back of my neck.

John.

I love that analogy. 

 

Me too,

i have an ubiquitous Class 47 CDS3 in Black Naim livery, and a specific Pacific Class LP12 naimed ’Salisbury Aro' with Radikal type tender built in the Cymbiosis Shed....

 

Debs - I would more liken the CDS3 to a Class 91 electric.  

The class 91 electric Goblin Teasmaid?

I don't think so! 

Innocent Bystander posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Huge,

A friend of mine visited with his original LP, and in those days I had a few CDs of pop music. My CD was a first issue, so that it at least seemed a reasonable comparison. After that we did make a comparison of LPs versus CD, and the recordings ranged from the 1920s to the 1990s and on classical not one single LP was as fine as the CD. Obviously on examples where I still had not parted with the LPs. All gone now exempt just two, kept because they were presents for tenth birthday ...

We listened also to quite a few of my friend’s Jazz recordings on CDs. ...

I bought the Rega P3 to transfer the LPs to CDs with a Philips CD recorder. I still have some of the transfers in iTunes as a rather fascinating comparison with the eventual commercial CD re-releases ... They are not obviously from LPs and have fooled a few, who thought they were commercial CDs!

ATB from George

 

I have a the 29th Anniversary edition in 24bit 88KHz that sounds pretty amazing (I didn't have an earlier version, not having been quite convinced by Dire Straits until having heard this)

Hi Innocent, is this Brother in Arms you discuss as 24/88KHz? I have seen a DVD-Dual Disc with 5.1 that can be  24/48 ripped but not any downloads online as yet. Is this a DVD-A ripped file or something else. Been looking for a while.

Thank you

Dan43 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Huge,

A friend of mine visited with his original LP, and in those days I had a few CDs of pop music. My CD was a first issue, so that it at least seemed a reasonable comparison. After that we did make a comparison of LPs versus CD, and the recordings ranged from the 1920s to the 1990s and on classical not one single LP was as fine as the CD. Obviously on examples where I still had not parted with the LPs. All gone now exempt just two, kept because they were presents for tenth birthday ...

We listened also to quite a few of my friend’s Jazz recordings on CDs. ...

I bought the Rega P3 to transfer the LPs to CDs with a Philips CD recorder. I still have some of the transfers in iTunes as a rather fascinating comparison with the eventual commercial CD re-releases ... They are not obviously from LPs and have fooled a few, who thought they were commercial CDs!

ATB from George

 

I have a the 29th Anniversary edition in 24bit 88KHz that sounds pretty amazing (I didn't have an earlier version, not having been quite convinced by Dire Straits until having heard this)

Hi Innocent, is this Brother in Arms you discuss as 24/88KHz? I have seen a DVD-Dual Disc with 5.1 that can be  24/48 ripped but not any downloads online as yet. Is this a DVD-A ripped file or something else. Been looking for a while.

Thank you

 

Yes, I did mean Brothers in Arms. It's available on SACD.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Dan43 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Huge,

A friend of mine visited with his original LP, and in those days I had a few CDs of pop music. My CD was a first issue, so that it at least seemed a reasonable comparison. After that we did make a comparison of LPs versus CD, and the recordings ranged from the 1920s to the 1990s and on classical not one single LP was as fine as the CD. Obviously on examples where I still had not parted with the LPs. All gone now exempt just two, kept because they were presents for tenth birthday ...

We listened also to quite a few of my friend’s Jazz recordings on CDs. ...

I bought the Rega P3 to transfer the LPs to CDs with a Philips CD recorder. I still have some of the transfers in iTunes as a rather fascinating comparison with the eventual commercial CD re-releases ... They are not obviously from LPs and have fooled a few, who thought they were commercial CDs!

ATB from George

 

I have a the 29th Anniversary edition in 24bit 88KHz that sounds pretty amazing (I didn't have an earlier version, not having been quite convinced by Dire Straits until having heard this)

Hi Innocent, is this Brother in Arms you discuss as 24/88KHz? I have seen a DVD-Dual Disc with 5.1 that can be  24/48 ripped but not any downloads online as yet. Is this a DVD-A ripped file or something else. Been looking for a while.

Thank you

 

Yes, I did mean Brothers in Arms. It's available on SACD.

Thank you, ah yes the SACD. I wonder if a DSD has been made available as yet. Is it still the PS3 method of ripping SACDs? Sorry to jump this thread.

Dan43 posted:

Thank you, ah yes the SACD. I wonder if a DSD has been made available as yet. Is it still the PS3 method of ripping SACDs? Sorry to jump this thread.

PS3 is the only way I know of. It's one unexpected benefit of children who spend their lives gaming!

Let alone sounding better, the original vinyl seems a lot easier to find and play than a quality digital file. Brothers in Arms sold 30M copies and LPs are a dime a dozen in the used bins I shop.

Every digital version of BiA suffers from the double conversion issue.  However I don't know if there was an analogue master used for the LP, but I suspect so.

Given that the re-digitised digital master is 16/44.1 PCM (in this case a Sony format), there is no reason to believe a DSD conversion of it should sound any better.

The 20th aniversary SACD of BiA was remastered, but I don't know from what...  

I do know that (a few years ago) I'd heard it on vinyl (LP12) in someone else's system and it hadn't excited my interest, but last year I heard the SACD version and it made me want it. However, the two systems were different so I can't rule out that as the reason for startling effect.

Cdb posted:

No doubt these vinyl/digital threads will keep recurring and travelling along the same lines. I remain in the pro-vinyl camp (with LP12) but have not explored the hi-res digital option. I will throw in a couple of recent experiences to reaffirm my 'prejudice'. I asked for and was given the second Alabama Shakes CD for Christmas and found that when the music got louder it turned quite shrill. I asked whether anyone could corroborate this in the Music Room thread here and was told that the CD is compressed and the vinyl more listenable. This seems to correspond with the comment above about the new Bowie. Whether I now want to spend c.£20 on the Alabama Shakes vinyl is questionable. Example 2: I bought for my partner a copy of the recent Glenn Gould Goldberg (1981) vinyl reissue. We played it all through in silence. We then listened to the beginning of the CD version. Her comment (as pianist and music teacher) was that the record was like having him in the room, the CD was just listening to a CD. This was unprompted and although of course she knows my preference, would express her own view.

I imagine a band like Alabama Shakes is not in a position to challenge the processes involved in production, but it would be depressing if they really didn't appreciate the effect production decisions have on the end result. I suppose the cynical view is that nowadays most listeners will only hear the music in MP3 and in that medium it probably sounds better compressed. Of course buying new vinyl is far from guaranteeing good SQ.

Clive

 

Clive,

just a quick word to the wise. I have the Shakes "Boys & Girls" on vinyl. The SQ is lousy so save your money. I can't comment on their second album as I never bought it.

Dave

Huge posted:

Every digital version of BiA suffers from the double conversion issue.  However I don't know if there was an analogue master used for the LP, but I suspect so.

Given that the re-digitised digital master is 16/44.1 PCM (in this case a Sony format), there is no reason to believe a DSD conversion of it should sound any better.

Agreed original version of BIA was recorded in 44.1/16 digital, so nothing can ever improve on this.

Well, almost... but that is another league of tech, but the current Vinyl or SACD versions won't benefit from this at all.

So I never bought the Vinyl, and was never blown away by it when i did hear it on an LP12, frankly to my ears it just sounded quite mediocre. 

analogmusic posted:

Huge posted:

Every digital version of BiA suffers from the double conversion issue.  However I don't know if there was an analogue master used for the LP, but I suspect so.

Given that the re-digitised digital master is 16/44.1 PCM (in this case a Sony format), there is no reason to believe a DSD conversion of it should sound any better.

Agreed original version of BIA was recorded in 44.1/16 digital, so nothing can ever improve on this.

Well, almost... but that is another league of tech, but the current Vinyl or SACD versions won't benefit from this at all.

So I never bought the Vinyl, and was never blown away by it when i did hear it on an LP12, frankly to my ears it just sounded quite mediocre. 

Interesting - is that definitive that it was only recorded in 16bit 44 kHz, as opposed to recorded in analog As well? If so the vinyl can't sound better than the CD unless it was mixed better, in which case the SACD version could sound better than the original CD, eg if it was made from the analog mix (although a CD version of the SACD mix should then sound the same as the SACD, in which case I've been done!)

however if there was an analog master, the SACD may have been made from that - and I hope was, given the CD quality limitation of the digital master - so could indeed sound better than the CD, and better than a vinyl version of the same if subjected to compression.

Meanwhile opinions seem to vary as to which of the original CD and LP sounded better, so maybe there were pressing differences, too.

Well if it was recorded in m/c 16/44.1; then converted back to analogue for mixing, there is a potential that in the future (now) a better m/c DAC could be utilised to produce better end results than was available then, or digital mixing could be utilised.

The resultant signal could then (legitimately) be recorded at higher than 16/44.1 and there could be some advantage, though of course there will still be nothing over 22.5kHz of the original recording.

Even with identical mixing recorded back to 16/44.1 ... mastering can still provide a difference between CD, vinyl and SACD (though then claiming its pure DSD is misleading).

Eloise posted:

Even with identical mixing recorded back to 16/44.1 ... mastering can still provide a difference between CD, vinyl and SACD (though then claiming its pure DSD is misleading).

What I don't understand is why there should be mastering differences between LP and digital releases (ignoring subsequent remastering), or as one I cited, apparently between CDs pressed in different countries. In my naivety I would expect the mastering to be to the audio satisfaction of the artist/engineer/publisher, and then simply put out in the different formats. Or do they think the different formats go to different markets which are divided by a different taste in sound?

Or is it to keep the analog vs digital debate going, thus fuel for this forum?!