Supernait 1 recapping or adding HiCap

Michael, I don't think your SN is ready for a recap. A good friend has a HC-DR [not HC] on his SN and is very, very happy with its addition in terms of opening up the sound.

Chris

Hi Michael, 

I had a SN1 for many years with a (non DR) HC on it - I loved it. I trialled the HC as soon as I bought the SN1 and never went back to the bare amp. For me the HC transformed the sound in almost every aspect - deeper bass, better sound stage, timing etc.

I agree with Chris, I'm not sure you need to recap the SN but I'm sure you would enjoy the SQ improvements offered by the HC (Be it DR or non DR).

Harty

Michael,

I think I am the (good) friend of Christopher's.. And yes, I have a SN (my second one, actually), and my suggestion is buy a HCDR. I have had a number of HiCaps, and the addition of a HCDR really moves the SN in SN2 territory without changing the SN's more 'masculine' character. You only consider recapping (something I would not consider for gear younger than 25 years, minimum) or HiCapping, so I strongly recommend: HiCap-DR. They are already (for reasons mysterious to me) found second hand. And a HCDR will always come in handy..

Best

Max

Thanks for the response guys.

My concern wrt to SQ would be that the sound gets too, well "HiFi-ish". I really appreciate the drive of the SN.

But to the other question, do a HC make the caps in the SN redundant, or are still some used even with a HC?

/BR Michael

I was under the impression you should get your amp serviced and recapped about every ten years? My amp came back sounding better than new from  a recap when about fifteen years old. No idea if the HC completely bypasses the amps capacitors. Failed capacitors can make quite a mess, I've heard. Service and recap is pretty cheap too,

Just a couple of personal opinions - I have more than once read or heard experiences from technicians who have tested 20, 30 or even 40 years old capacitors without, in many cases, finding the values significantly changed; my idea is that Naim recommends recapping old amps or power supplies after ten years or so because of their strong commitment to offering a chance to have their gear at original specs. If one can really hear the difference between the same amp with new capacitors after 15 years (basing, that is, on long term memory) is another matter, about which I humbly and not polemically express serious perplexity. I have a 40 years old Pioneer SA 7300, connected to a 40 years old pair of AR4x; to my ears, it sounds very much like my identical pair sounded, 40 years ago - if I remember correctly, it means that the amp is still in good shape, if I remember wrong why care doing the recap?

Adding a HC to a SN relieves the internal PSU from the task of powering the preamp section, which is now in charge of the HC; and leaves the internal PSU to the power amp, DAC and digital controls and display. This has a double benefit: the preamp is powered by a dedicated, powerful PSU and the internal one has a lesser task. I don't know exactly what 'HiFi-ish' could mean in this case: in my case, the SN has gained finesse and insight without losing guts.

These are my opinions only: I strongly believe in upgrading PSUs and I very scarcely believe in the recap thing. It's just me, hope it helps.

M

If you get a Hicap it will not remove the need for a recap in due course. You certainly don't need to recap the amp for three or four years yet. The addition of a Hicap is something else entirely - it provides a dedicated supply for the preamp and will improve the sound. 

That said, for the cost of a Hicap dr you could sell the amp and get a Supernait 2. That's what I'd do. 

Your SN1 isn't exactly ancient, but when the time comes, I'd be a bit nervous about assuming an amp doesn't need a service just because you've got a Hicap. I can see your thinking - you don't need a recap if the caps aren't in use any more when the Hicap takes over. But a service might replace more than just caps. Having had an old, unserviced Naim amp destroy my  speaker drivers many years ago, I would err on the side of caution. 

Electronics isn't really my subject, so I'm happy to be proved wrong on this by someone who knows what they're talking about....but at least give Naim service dept, or Class A, a call and get their opinion.

Or, as HH says, sell it and move on - but only if your source is good enough......

I respect all opinions, especially when they conform to Naim's own indications. Yet, I am somehow perplexed about the whole recap thing. My old Pioneer amp is an example of unnatural longevity or is it an overlooked norm? And I am sure some are thinking that it probably sounded s**t 40 years ago so it has no reason to sound different now; but reading of a 2008 amplifier that is considered, or suspected, in need of a service, or otherwise obsolescing, is a little weird to me.

My opinion only. BTW, my 25 years old NAP140, when I had it a couple of years ago, sounded exactly like I remembered my 1991 one did; but then, it's a match between memory and reality again.

One last consideration: the SN2 is out since not long, and a number of members think it worthwhile to ditch the old SN1 in favour of the 2: so, the idea itself of keeping the same amp for the fifteen years required for the capacitors to become 'useless' seems odd... From this point of view, why wait for a piece of gear to need servicing when new models are out every year? Much earlier than your SN1 will need recapping, the SN2 will have become obsolete, or so it will be seen by some. So, use your SN1 to death and just wait for SN3...

As has already been stated, a service does more than simply replace capacitors.

A lot of cars specify that the cam-belt should be replaced at 100km. Of course you wil find cars that still work at 200km but I would never take the chance. And you may be of the opinion that your car has a cam-chain so won't break. But these stretch and if the manufacturer specifies a replacement interval then I still follow it.

My last Naim service (at about 11 years), at minimum, confirmed that it is working at spec.

True, but you don't travel at 100 MPH on your SN1. You just play music on it.

M

Servicing of cars is based on wear of mechanical components, adjusting to compensate, replacing critical things before they are likely to fail causing breakdown or worse (margin of safety). Also changing lubricants that deteriorate through picking up of contaminants and breakdown of additives in the hot engine environment.

With amps the only moving parts are switches and potentiometers - and interestingly as far as I am aware they don't get changed unless they are faulty. Some capacitors, notably electrolytics, can suffer gradual breakdown such that their capacitance changes, affecting performance. That is analogous with mechanical wear, and forms the basis of most commonly talked about amplifier servicing requirements (also speaker crossovers) - the only other thing I'm aware of that might be done with amp servicing is checking of voltages at certain test points in the circuit, and if changed such adjusting to 'trim' back to the reference value, or to match channels. I'd be interested to know what else is actually down, if anything.

As for required frequency, in general it is far from certain how long a period of time must elapse before component values might change sufficiently to have an audible effect, and may well depend on temperatures and temperature cycling, I.e. how much usage and how many times turned off and allowed to cool down as there will be direct effects of temperature, and stresses from expansion/contraction. Perhaps manufacturers should give service intervals a bit like cars, X years or Y thousand hours of use or z warmup/cool down cycles, whichever comes first... 

(N.B. Exploding capacitors are unlikely except when badly deteriorated in very old gear, such as, for example, repowering old valve equipment that has been out of use for a long time.)

Meanwhile, however, comparing subjective sound today with a memory from decades ago is meaningless, as I don't think memory of sound is absolute like that. All the more so when the system has been used all through the intervening time, so you will have been constantly adjusting to the minuscule short-term changes while your ears may very well have changed over time as well. 

I've had a SN1 new since 2009. I was going to wait until 2019 before I get it serviced. 

For most of that time it has been used with a non-DR HiCap but after a bit of experimentation last year it has been running bare. 

Whilst the HC does add refinement and a bigger soundstage I concluded it somewhat lacked the raw excitement of the bare unit.

A HiCap will be no substitute for a service when a service is required. And any change to the sound brought about by adding a HiCap will be purely down to personal taste - so make sure you spend time listening to that change before splashing the cash.

My naim dealer prefers the SN2 over the SN just fyi.

+ 1 on hicap-dr. I used to have a 202-200 and with a powerline on the hicap-dr I really prefer the more analogue and almost valve-like expression of the classic integrated. Go for it!

fred

Thank you all for commenting.

As more or less expected adding a HC comes down to personal taste w.r.t. to SQ, I'll certainly audition before spending any money.

HiFi-ish could perhaps be described as too analytical, which on records with not so good SQ results in a harsh sound that is tiring.

If I understand you correctly the HC only relieve the SN pre-amp section from it's duties, i.e. recapping would still be necessary. Doesn't seem to be any consensus whether it's within a couple of years or later, the problem is to recognize when it's time if it's a slow degrade of the SQ.

SN2 is not an option, I need the DAC in SN and also don't want to end up with a lot of boxes.

/BR Michael