SN2 Vs NAC 200 + NAR 250 ( non DR )

catalinmetal posted:

MPW, any Naim amplification from current range is better than Nait 5i... XS(1/2), SN (1/2), any pre+ power (NAC+NAP).

but if could choose between pre+power and in integrated, and for the same money, i wouldn't hesitate for the pre+power!

starting with 202/200, no integrated amp, not even SN2, is at this level, no matter what SN owners might say...

so to your dilemma, 202/HC/250.2 at the SN2 money, is an instant no brainer: take the 202/HC/250.2!

202 pre is ways better than preamp in SN or SN2, and 250.2 is also way better than SN or SN2 power amp section... so there is really no competition. as for those with 202 not matching with 2502... urban legends... is more like if they both match woth the speakers you have... but if Nait 5i goes well, 202/HC/250.2 should be a rocket.

I do agree with Catalin on this one 100 %.

I've never been impressed with Supernait, the Naim separates (even if 202/250.2) just are that much better.

GraemeH posted:

"starting with 202/200, no integrated amp, not even SN2, is at this level, no matter what SN owners might say..."

Coming from a 252/300 to SN2:HCDR I'd say listen for yourself.

G

Graeme, just because you've had your reasons to downgrade, it doesn't mean that anybody should! i've done the comparisons in many configs, and the passing from integrateds, no matter which one, to 202/200 level is - probably - the most substantial gain in SQ in Naim range...

that someone might choose different amps for various reasons, is an entirely something else. if we choose performance, then i don't see how, in any setup, a SN will outperform a 202/250 combo.

the correct answer is of course to listen for himself, BUT, if in the future something might change, and with a 250 on the tail, better speakers might come handy, it is better to have the best control for them.

yes, combining different Naim gear can bring various flavors, and anyone is right in choosing the suitable flavor, but better is just better. and we should advise just like this: the better thing is "insert combo" but some people might like "insert another combo"...

Ask yourself this, did Naim design the 202 to go with a 250?  The SN2 sounds together, musically speaking, and that is what counts.

ask yourself this: you have a preamp and a power amp. they are better than an integrated amp.

now, you borrow a power amp from the same manufacturer, which is one step above the power amp you have...

if A implies B and B implies C, then... you get it, preamp and new power amp is still better than the integrated amp...

hence, 202/200 better than SN, 250 better than 200 this means 202/250 better than SN. is simply logic! everything else is speculation (i guess, i think, i like ...and so on).

Naim - and for that matter any sane hifi manufacturer - will always support the idea of the power amp that better drives the speakers... this is the main key and the main dissatisfaction with SQ: poorly driven speakers... of course, some cannot even really tell when this is the case! sometimes, some still prefer an amp that cannot drive properly the speakers because they like a certain sound signature... i did preferred for once a Nait 5i instead of an XS because in that particular context, the interaction with the room favored the lesser amp...

but i would still recommend the better amp to at least try! and if no tests are possible, then i will suggest the better amp, period.

A man of logic wow!

Help me with this one, without the Statement there would be no DR Amps, 009 Resisters, SL Technologies.

Now correct me, if I'm wrong, the 200 can't be Dred in the same manor as the 250 & upwards.  

Why wouldn't a 2.7K 250.2 be the amp of choice!  I picked up a mint 250 full warranty SN 388xxx @ 4K. They are out there @ 3K all day with less than 3 years on them.

Which could be Dred down the road!

BTW it's still a 250, and furthur down the listening chain, and even those hyped up reviews,  Hints it's not a revelation!

JMHO!!

The Armchair QB!

But what if the integrated amp is a better ownership proposition than the pre-power combination?

One cannot sensibly assert as a fact that a pre-power is better than an integrated. If the starting point is illogical, then it's logical that what follows cannot be logical either.

If some of you want to believe that a CD5xs, 202, Hicap and a 250.2 is a great system, then carry on believing it. There's no point trying to change a closed mind. 

BTW 99% of the amps on the market aren't regulated, including the Nap 200 DR!

Some damned strange logic on display in this thread, just use your ears and listen to the options, it's not rocket science.  I'd have, and indeed have, a SN2 over a 202/200 any day of the week

catalinmetal posted:

ask yourself this: you have a preamp and a power amp. they are better than an integrated amp.

now, you borrow a power amp from the same manufacturer, which is one step above the power amp you have...

if A implies B and B implies C, then... you get it, preamp and new power amp is still better than the integrated amp...

hence, 202/200 better than SN, 250 better than 200 this means 202/250 better than SN. is simply logic! everything else is speculation (i guess, i think, i like ...and so on).

 

Did you reach this conclusion using your ears, or did you need to ask your accountant? 

In the end, I think the OP will find the 202/HC/250.2 to be better than the SN2.

Another issue for the OP to bear in mind is the age and condition of any used gear, given that Naim amps generally need a recap after about ten years. If you live too far from a dealer to go and listen, you will also not have access to a service dept. With a new Supernait, that's something you don't have to worry about for a decade or so. With separates, you may need to do it sooner rather than later, and then you'll have to ship three boxes instead of one.

true, but then I would still go for 202/HC/250.2

recapping is hardly a reason to avoid separates

analogmusic posted:

true, but then I would still go for 202/HC/250.2

recapping is hardly a reason to avoid separates

It is if there's nowhere to get it done.

catalinmetal posted:

GraemeH posted:

"starting with 202/200, no integrated amp, not even SN2, is at this level, no matter what SN owners might say..."

Coming from a 252/300 to SN2:HCDR I'd say listen for yourself.

G

Graeme, just because you've had your reasons to downgrade, it doesn't mean that anybody should! ...

 

Sorry, I know you like to be the voice of authority but 2 things: 1. Where did I suggest the OP or anybody should downgrade? 2. My experience moving from a 2006 252/300 to a brand new SN2 was based on listening to the SN2 in my system, in my room (with my ears!) and I didn't consider it a downgrade at all.

Listen with an open mind is all I suggest.

G

+1   Good advice from HH.  

I agree with other posters here that separates can sound better than any Nait, if properly set up on Fraim or similar HiFi rack and with good cable dressing.  In fact, no one has recommended Full Statement, because it is better yet.  

The OP stated what I interpreted as rigid budget constraints.  What is needed is a well balanced system which fits the budget.  

Accepted wisdom is "source first."  It is widely reported on this forum that a system which a source which is "better" (higher up the Naim heirarchy) than the downstream amp will be more musically satisfying than a system with an amp which is "better" than the upstream source or preamp.  So if a system is imbalanced, it is likely best that it be heavy on the source end.  Part of the idea of a balanced system is that funds are invested to get the best possible sound.  And do not forget the importance of the rack and cables.

If the CD5XS is a given, then this constrains the rest of the system, if balance is to be achieved.  

Good Luck,

Charlie

Catalinmetal, please be advised that most people on here talk from experience and don't speculate as you so 'humbly' suggest.

analogmusic posted:

In the end, I think the OP will find the 202/HC/250.2 to be better than the SN2.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, is the post not titled:

"SN2 Vs NAC 200 + NAR 250 ( non DR )"

I know Nac 202/Nap 250, we all know what he meant! 

To the OP, you are on the right track, his some info. to put under your hat:

"Naim's NAC202 The NAC202, 282 and 252 are alarmingly similar inside. The main differences being, full potential of each pre amp is only possible with better power supply options. (202/Hi Cap, 282 two Hi Caps or SC, 252 SC only, 552 another World!)"

Well maybe the OP, will shut the post down, last time he checked in he seemed a little annoyed, Welcome to DA Forum!!!

LOL.....

The Armchair QB!!

I understand the logic in saying a separate pre power would be better than an integrated. Isn't the SN2 a considerably newer design than the NAC202? Might this not imply it 'could' have a more up to date (better?) pre section?

I had an older olive Naim pre/power and power supply.  I preferred the SN2 and went that way.

Ok Matt, lets change one word in the question you just asked:

"I understand the logic in saying a separate pre power would be better than an integrated. Isn't the SN2 a considerably newer design than the NAC252?

Now look at the next statement: 

 The NAC202, 282 and 252 are alarmingly similar inside.

The SN2 is a fine component, and the degree of difference may be marginal, but it's still an integrated component with a lot of devices crammed into one box. 

Look I own an 282, never heard a 252, or 552, but based on certain information, I wouldn't expect much difference between my 282 and a 202, both ran with the same Hi Cap Dr PS.  The Napscmight give the 282 a small advantage, lets face it, its marketing!

And I own a 282, Blindfold me, I don't think I would be able to tell the difference, but there you go, the pecking order, look at what I own, A Statement S1 Pre, 552, oh the 252 is superior to the 282, etc... 

If you  really think about it, guess what the 552 is probably better due to the fact it can only be ran off the Naim's best Pre Amp PS, the 555PS.

There  you go let it rest, and enjoy your gear, At 6K the SN2 should be a fine component, and it probably is!!!!!!! But don't get confused we're talking 2nd hand Market prices vs Brand New SN2!  And the Dred 202 with an 250.2 comes in at about 5.3K!!!!  Always follow the cash!!!!!

Apples with oranges.

 The OP asked about a 202 not a 252. I surmised than a SN2 might have a newer and better preamp than a 202. Conjecture on my part for sure, but just trying to counter the argument that a pre/power would always be better than an integrated.

I saw the OP was talking new SN2 vs second hand alternatives but this doesn't preclude holding out for a 2nd hand SN2. 

I can't comment as to the similarity of the Naim pre amps but I'd guess / hope there is more difference than you make out.

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's worth considering what the ultimate destination is, before finally deciding. I wouldn't use a CD5xs into either amp unless it had a flatcap powering it. Perhaps a more balanced alternative is to get a Nait XS and a flatcap XS to power both the Nait and the CD player. 

If you go the 250 route, you really want a 282 with it. But that will definitely need a better source, such as CDX2/XPS or, even better, CDS3/XPS. If that is too much, don't go for the 250 based system. 

The CD5xs with Nait xs and flatcap is very good, and very likely all you ever need. It's perfectly balanced, nice and simple and won't have you wanting to upgrade and being dissatistified the moment you buy it - which is what would happen with an ill matched combination such as the CD5 with 202 and 250. The Supernait is a half way house - ok with the CD5, but still deserves better. 

Very sensible.

Trust me Matt, these are quotes, not from me, my point is the similarity between the 202 and the 252, kind of like Catilina was suggesting!  If A > B, and B > C then C > A. 

And I can understand the OP wanting New gear, its a judgement Call!  New vs 2nd Hand!  I purchased over 30K worth of gear in the last two years, cost me 18K 2nd hand, the only way I could afford Cdx2/ Hi Cap DR / 282 / 250.2 / 200 / 250.2.

I don't have a problem with SN2, just follow the Cash! Like I said before I probably can't tell the difference between a 282 and 202, 

Enjoy your gear!!!!!!

Follow the cash. What exactly does that mean. Allante - you seem to be losing the plot with your posts. What are to trying to say?

If A > B, and B > C then C > A.  That sums it up for me.  Algebra has the answer.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Follow the cash. What exactly does that mean. Allante - you seem to be losing the plot with your posts. What are to trying to say?

HH, the OP is saying it not me, He thinking between a SN2 and an Dred 202 with a 250.2, which could be upgraded to your 250DR, which is a helllllllll of Amp.

New SN2 6K  2nd Gear 5.3K, and down the road he could have that excellent amp that you own the 250 DR! 

Capiche!!!!