SN2 Vs NAC 200 + NAR 250 ( non DR )

Hungryhalibut posted:

The 202/250 is not a happy combination. I'd take the Supernait 2. 

What do you think about the 202/250DR!!!!!!?

Yes that well known excellent combination of 202/250DR.....  How about a used SN2 for £1900 and a better source.

They you go Gary, the OP is on the right track!  

I think you misinterpreted my response.

Well I got to go to work, eyeballing a SC DR 2nd hand serviced by AudioPlus, in 2014.

3.4K  heck of a deal!! 

TTUL Forum

gary yeowell posted:

Yes that well known excellent combination of 202/250DR.....  How about a used SN2 for £1900 and a better source.

My Bad Gary, But the OP is deciding between a New SN2 and 2nd hand Separate Combo within his budget! 

This thread is absolute mayhem!

MPW, FWIW, in my limited experience I don't think that separates is always better having much preferred a Nait XS-1 to a NAC152/NAP155 XS combo in the past. For me, the SN2 is very much a complete amplifier and makes beautiful music, in such a coherent way. There aren't too many unhappy SN2 owners that I am aware of, however as you say you are of limited budget for a couple of years, you potentially run the risk of ending up with a separates combo that you may not be happy with, but your hands will be tied. As such, personally, I would be more tempted by the SN2, particularly if your speakers are easy to drive.

As HH points out though, a NaitXS/FCXS is another very satisfying combination which would give you a nicely balanced set up.

Allante93 posted:

gary yeowell posted:

Yes that well known excellent combination of 202/250DR.....  How about a used SN2 for £1900 and a better source.

My Bad Gary, But the OP is deciding between a New SN2 and 2nd hand Separate Combo within his budget! 

I'd still take the SN2 any time, it's an end game amp. Many users who go through the midrange pre/power combo's tend to be constantly on the upgrade treadmill.

Getting the 202/HicapDR/250 at SN2 price seems like a good deal. But for me, it will just create a big headache.

The CD5XS + 202/HicapDR/250 feels imbalanced to me. To fix it, I will have to upgrade my CD player (more money), sell the 202 for at least a 282.... and I can't get the 272 because that would mean I have to sell the HicapDR (more money lost), then because the 250DR is so attractive, I would end up DRing it (more money). So now I end up with a completely different set up that require investing my time and money for the next few years/months. What a pain!

I will just be happy and stick to my current setup. CD5XS and Nait 5i is enjoyable! The advice on getting the SN2 or the NaitXS/FlatcapXS ace good. Both are solid upgrades without the pain involved.

Hi

I dont foresee any change in my source CD5XS or for that matter my Turntable SL1210mk2

I have a budget constraint wherein i have to decide between 

SN2 

Naim XS2 ( 70W ) + Flatcap 

Naim XS2 ( 60W ) + Flatcap

Pre owned Naim NAC 202 pre amp with NAPC power supply and HiCap DR power supply upgrades  NAP 250 power amp. 

I am open to pre -owned on all combos listed above.

Presently the CD5XS and Naim Nait 5i-2 are mighty enjoyable ( along with my sealed subwoofer ). The ONLY reason i am looking for change my amp is :-

a. My Naim nait 5i-2 is now 3 years old and sometimes i feel the "itch " 

b. I feel my Merlins will appreciate about 20W / 30W more - its not the loudness but the quality of power and the headroom available that is under consideration. I think additional 20W / 30W will enable my Merlins to shall i say - bloom.

Am painfully  aware of trying to reach for something more and the pitfalls there in. But i am reasonable secure knowing that my taste in music is very wide and this of late includes western classical and sometimes the Nait 5i-2 feels a little short.

The Nait 5i-2 is a wonderful amp on its own can can handle a lot of music with gusto.

I must hasten to add that western classical music is a genre where many reputed amps can trip over. This particular genre is not a dominating one ( for me ) now but i suppose additional an amp with additional watts / headroom will do better for me.

My listening area is open on both sides and the room is large as well which is why i covered for it with a sealed subwoofer.

regards

Thank you OP, for stating your case!

The Armchair QB!

MPW, the upgrade itch will never go away.... that's the way it is with our hobby.

That said. The SN2 forces you to stop at the highest tier on Naim's integrated range. Moving to separates after that will cost you big money. The next upgrade for the SN2 is the HicapDR, but it is optional for many people.

SN2 is a good place to start and stop. Anything else... and you'll continue to feel the upgrade itch.

Posted by kmchow:

''MPW, the upgrade itch will never go away.... that's the way it is with our hobby.

That said. The SN2 forces you to stop at the highest tier on Naim's integrated range. Moving to separates after that will cost you big money. The next upgrade for the SN2 is the HicapDR, but it is optional for many people."

Kmchow, its ok the OP has to decide for himself, just like you make your own decessions.

Who knows, he may decide to buy the brand new SN2, or he may choose the 2nd hand route, there are pros & cons to both Routes.

But in the end it's his choice. Bases on facts, not nonsense!

Gentleman, Please keep the Integrity of the Forum!

The Armchair QB!

Honestly, a Naim dealer worth their salt (and most are) can talk you through what the options are and where you think you want to go with the system in a way that is best for you rather than purely their own pocket.

My dealer is 6000 miles away and we touch base throghout the year. Forum advice is great to get you thinking about stuff, but the day you stop trusting a dealer at all is the day we might as well just have h-fi whore houses where you rent a demonstration room by the hour, listen to what you want and then buy what you want off Amazon without any expert advice. I like to hope that is not the direction people want to head in.

And if you only get out of the country to see your dealer once a year (or 10 in my case), it still may be worth hanging in there rather than take an expensive punt. Some of the advice on this thread is sound and some is downright iffy but none of it is my place to say specifically which is which.

When I moved from a FCXS'd Nait XS to a bare SN2 I kept all the same system components. Amazing the resolution, black, grip and grunt it added. There's no balancing variables involved with an integrated - its all been optimized internally for you by Naim. Except to say that with the SN2 you've likely moved out of the league of a FCXS, the HC(DR) being the appropriate PSU. My SN2 has been fine sans PSU, I've minimized shelving, ICs, power cords, and I'm at the top of the Naim chain for an integrated. Difficult for me to imagine there is better VFM out there for a Naim system than the SN2, though I have not heard the latest Nait XS2 in my room.

Allante93 posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

The 202/250 is not a happy combination. I'd take the Supernait 2. 

What do you think about the 202/250DR!!!!!!?

That would be as daft as a 202/250.2, but even more of a mullet. 

mpw posted:

Hi

I dont foresee any change in my source CD5XS or for that matter my Turntable SL1210mk2

I have a budget constraint wherein i have to decide between 

SN2 

Naim XS2 ( 70W ) + Flatcap 

Naim XS2 ( 60W ) + Flatcap

Pre owned Naim NAC 202 pre amp with NAPC power supply and HiCap DR power supply upgrades  NAP 250 power amp. 

I am open to pre -owned on all combos listed above.

Presently the CD5XS and Naim Nait 5i-2 are mighty enjoyable ( along with my sealed subwoofer ). The ONLY reason i am looking for change my amp is :-

a. My Naim nait 5i-2 is now 3 years old and sometimes i feel the "itch " 

b. I feel my Merlins will appreciate about 20W / 30W more - its not the loudness but the quality of power and the headroom available that is under consideration. I think additional 20W / 30W will enable my Merlins to shall i say - bloom.

Am painfully  aware of trying to reach for something more and the pitfalls there in. But i am reasonable secure knowing that my taste in music is very wide and this of late includes western classical and sometimes the Nait 5i-2 feels a little short.

The Nait 5i-2 is a wonderful amp on its own can can handle a lot of music with gusto.

I must hasten to add that western classical music is a genre where many reputed amps can trip over. This particular genre is not a dominating one ( for me ) now but i suppose additional an amp with additional watts / headroom will do better for me.

My listening area is open on both sides and the room is large as well which is why i covered for it with a sealed subwoofer.

regards

Supernait - very good idea - ideally needs a better source but the 5xs will be fine.

Nait XS with flatcap - perfect match for your CD player. Power supply gets the best from your CD player and the amplifier. Probably the best option  

202/Hicap/250 to add to your cd5xs. Stupid idea. Really really stupid. Great if you want to collect gear, but rubbish if you want a system to enjoy listening to music on. Ideal to be able to say to your mates 'and this, of course, is Naim's Classic 250 power amp, refined over the years', but less ideal when they say, 'it may be a classic, but why does the system sound so bad?'  

Those are, as I see it, the choices. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Ideal to be able to say to your mates 'and this, of course, is Naim's Classic 250 power amp, refined over the years', but less ideal when they say, 'it may be a classic, but why does the system sound so bad?'  

Interesting perspective. For me the thought of constructing a trophy case of gear never enters the equation. Visitors or family in my house wouldn't recognize a Naim from a Sony or give a rat's ass either way other than the sound.

Joe, I agree with you completely. I was simply using it as an example of how something that might be good on paper won't necessarily be the best in practice. 

MPW, I think you'll get more pleasure from a better CD source, first. Nothing wrong with the CD5XS at all. Except it doesn't match any of the amplification you're considering.

C.

Now that's an old-school text-book response.

Seems plausible that with underfed speakers the grip of amplification will trump a source upgrade.

Old skool, and proud.

Ideally something like CDX2.2 and SN2 looks like a way forward to me.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

MPW, I think you'll get more pleasure from a better CD source, first. Nothing wrong with the CD5XS at all. Except it doesn't match any of the amplification you're considering.

C.

The CD5XS is not a bad source. Personally, I am having a hard time sourcing for CDs.... the world seems to be moving to streaming or digital media files. I have moved to streaming music from my PC more than 5 years ago.

So I am don't agree with you on getting a better CD player. A better source? Yes. 

Assuming MPW gets a good dealer to talk to, I'm sure the advice will similar to what's been recommended here.

There should be options for trade ins, pre-owned NaitXS/flatcapXS and even an SN2. Demo and then decide. That's why I buy Naim. 

Like what HungryHalibut said. It's a stupid idea. Even a 202/200DR is a better recommendation than a 202/HicapDR/250.2. A simple two box pre-power that was great, and now even better because of 200DR.

GraemeH posted:

catalinmetal posted:

GraemeH posted:

"starting with 202/200, no integrated amp, not even SN2, is at this level, no matter what SN owners might say..."

Coming from a 252/300 to SN2:HCDR I'd say listen for yourself.

G

Graeme, just because you've had your reasons to downgrade, it doesn't mean that anybody should! ...

 

Sorry, I know you like to be the voice of authority but 2 things: 1. Where did I suggest the OP or anybody should downgrade? 2. My experience moving from a 2006 252/300 to a brand new SN2 was based on listening to the SN2 in my system, in my room (with my ears!) and I didn't consider it a downgrade at all.

Listen with an open mind is all I suggest.

G

then... i'll rest my case with you! if 252/300 is below SN2, then either the 252/300 is faulty, or the user hears something wrong...

let's ask Naim, in which case apart from pure space issues, or cash issues, or - again - faulty units) they recommend SN2 to 252/300.

Graeme, i'm not the voice of reason, but ... you think your logic is of more use in this thread?!

CharlieP posted:

+1   Good advice from HH.  

I agree with other posters here that separates can sound better than any Nait, if properly set up on Fraim or similar HiFi rack and with good cable dressing.  In fact, no one has recommended Full Statement, because it is better yet.  

 

Accepted wisdom is "source first."  It is widely reported on this forum that a system which a source which is "better" (higher up the Naim heirarchy) than the downstream amp will be more musically satisfying than a system with an amp which is "better" than the upstream source or preamp. 

Charlie

even Naim can disagree with this! i recently checked with them for an advice regarding a setup with 172/200DR vs NDX/NaitXS2 for S400.

guess what 2 high rank officials suggested?

not source first... they actually told that the 200 will be more than needed in this case...

as far as separates sounding better than integrated IF expensive racks or cable dressing used... no, they sound better period! that you can maximise the effects, that's another story...

i was actually surprised to see how small the difference was when comparing 172 as source with NDX through XS2... yes the sound was mesmerising through the XS2, and it tricked me for a day or two, but when i connected the 200DR back on, the difference was night and day! never seen such a difference in Naim sources hierarchy up to this day.