SN2 Vs NAC 200 + NAR 250 ( non DR )

Oh for crying out loud.  I suggest you look up the word 'synergy' in a good dictionary Caitlin or just buy the statement amps and run your mobile phone through your 202 into it.  I'm going to resist reading this thread from this point on

Put on Rush really loudly and bang your head on the floor. I think we all need to accept that Catalinmetal is the ultimate source of system building advice.

You are wasting your breath Dayjay.....  best to just ignore as you say.

To be fair Cat, the context of your question to Phil and Steve was seen to be about driving the S400.  In which case they both agreed that the NAP200 would better be able to drive these speakers.  Source hardly came into the question.  

Of course, what they didn't say was that while the NAC-N172xs and NAP200 with S-400s would work OK, it probably isn't the best way to apportion that kind of budget - rather too much speaker at the back end and not enough source and pre to do them proper justice. Not forgetting that starting with the S400s in the first place is getting it all arse about face..

Literally took the words out of my mouth Richard, just i couldn't muster the energy to say it again.

Since we are alluding to system balance as being the main thing for good sound i was wondering if my present system of CD5XS and Naim nait 5i-2 - the balance is skewed towards the source ( and i am liking the sound - but this is like a frog in a well statement )

whilst

a combination like CD5XS + SN2 or CD5XS + pre power would be skewed towards the amplifier side.

does this line of thinking make any sense to you ? 

and if so then the only thing that gets " balance " into the equation is the CD5XS + Naim XS2 + Flatcap XS.

Basically - since the source is going to remain the same - no point in skewing the " balance" the other way - towards the amplifiers ??

But flipping it further...... if i go for the best amp my money can buy me in that price bracket - maybe in about 2 or 3 years ( or inbetween if i could get lucky ) i may have a better source as well.

I am looking to stick to CD's and Vinyl as my only 2 sources.

I like listening to full albums.

regards

Ok, for understanding, lets  look at the OP's choice of source as it pertains to CDP's! 

S1/CD 555 Naim's best

552/CD 555 Naim's best

252/Cdx2 2nd best

282/Cdx2 2nd best

202/CD555 will work source 1st

202/Cdx2 will work source 1st

202/CD5xs mullet ?

VERY IMPORTANT

So if the OP decides he wants a 202 Pre, his source is a mullet, 

Correct??????

Its over 50 post comparing CD5xs vs Cdx2 look them up!

 I thought the CD5xs was a fine source, in fact I took my System across the border to give it a listen. (282/Hi cap DR)

When I came across a 2nd hand Cdx2, I decided on the source 1st principal!

You no the pecking order thing, I have a Cdx2! And the best source I could afford!

But Repeat, if the OP decides on a 202 Pre, not a SN2, his CDP is a mullet, Correct???? 

I Don't need a Statement!

But if I had the disposable income, and wanted a Statement, I would be posting about broken 552's and under powered 500's. The pecking order thing!

 Honesty is a good thing!

The Armchair QB!

Wow, just missed you Richard, but I think I got the following line from you!

99% of the amps out there are unregulated, and the regulated 250 can do everything better than the 200.

Richard, whats your thoughts on OP's source.

 SN2 vs Hi Cap DR/202/250.2

a combination like CD5XS + SN2 or CD5XS + pre power would be skewed towards the amplifier side.

There's a lot that doesn't make sense at all on this thread.

Until about 6 months ago, I had a CD5XS/NaitXS/FlatcapXS.

I bought an SN2. There were improvements in certain areas, but they weren't the marked improvements I was expecting. Not because the SN2 is a bad amplifier, quite the opposite.

It was simply that the amplifier couldn't improve on the source - which is, most will agree, a good source. I'm now in a position in which I have to do something about the source - adding a DAC (Naim or Chord...) or getting a CDX2. I haven't decided what to do yet.

So, yes, listen to HH, for instance, or to others who will tell you that you might end up with an unbalanced system.

Unless you've been offered a fantastic deal and you're planning to improve the source (CD or streamer) in the near future.

Allante, if it were my decision and budget fixed then I would very likely go for a better source together with the Supernait 2.

However, as in all things, the OP should try to listen to the options and then make a decision.

Very well, I have been corrected by some who knows, and Respected by many. I rest my case!

Thanks Richard!

Cdx2/SN2 trumps CD5xs/202/Hi Cap DR/250.2

mpw posted:

Hi there

If one were to choose between a new SN2 and a NAC 200 + NAR 250 ( non DR ) ( pre loved with Hi Cap DR ) - what would it be.

I am hoping the seller ( of the NAC 202 + NAR 250 non DR ) would match the price of a new SN2.

I would not have a chance to upgrade the NAC 202 for a few years since i would have emptied out my bank and all the good will at home that any new purchase would be deemed as marching orders for me 

My source is a CD5XS and a Technics SL1210 TT running into Nait 5i-2 + NACA5 and Merlin TSM standmounts + sealed subwoofer

I am quite happy with the Merlins now and dont intend to change but the future may be a floorstander ( maybe just maybe )

I cannot stretch finances beyond this in the near - medium term.

regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Go for the 202 +250 combo.. But put the best mains cable you can get on the Hicap.

Just to be clear and for understanding:

That doesnt apply to same source!

Cdx2/SN2 vs Cdx2/202/Hi Cap DR/250.2

 Or does the SN2 out clase that pre combo???

I would imagine the later trumping the former by a mile with the right speakers.

Not necessarily TJ.  Masking exists at all levels of hifi performance and even a CDX2 has weaknesses as compared to even better sources that may be masked to some extent by a SN2 but revealed by a better  pre/power.  Combine that with the combination of a NAC202/Hicap/NAP250.2, which somehow always came across as comparatively lead footed compared to say a NAC282/NAP200, let alone a NAC282/Hicap/NAP250.2, and you may well have a system that is less than the sum of the parts. 

Now, that's not to say that a NAC202/Hicap/NAP250.2 is poor, it isn't, and in absolute terms it's excellent, it's just that if you spent the same money on a better pre-amp (say a NAC282) and a slightly lesser power amp (say a NAP200), you get an overall more engaging amplifier.  Of course, sticking with the NAP250.2 and going for a better pre-amp is better yet, but it's also more money.  As a general rule, I have found that with Naim (and with some other brands too), happy pre/power combos tend to have pre-amps at the same or better level than the power amp.  Unhappy combinations tend to have more in the power amp than the pre-amp.

A simple way to look at it is this; there's power (NAP = Naim Audio Power) and then there's control (NAC = Naim Audio Control). And power is useless without control... 

Very well put, Richard! 

I guess the Forum has been very helpful in my decession making!

Cdx2/Hi Cap DR/282/ 250.2/200/250.2

Passive Tri Amped Briks

Next upgrade SC DR & Snaxo 362

That's what nice about Separates, they allow one to take Advantage of Naim's Upgrade Path!!!

The Armchair QB!!

My Thanks to the Forum!

Wow 93 replies, I guess there's a lot of happy SN2 owners out there, after all Naim's Top of the line Integrated Component!

simply put :-

a. If my source continues to be CD5XS then Naim XS + Flatcap XS.

The Flatcap XS can power both the CD5XS and XS-2 ( or XS 60W )

b. If a better CD source then.... SN2 would be the preferred integrated.

c. Presently CD5XS into an SN2 will be passable but better than CD5XS into Naim nait 5i but will not explore the full potential of the SN2 or conversely - show up the CD5XS 

d. If a better CD source then pre-power comes into the equation but it is always better to go for a pre amp that is designed for that particular power amp

e. Its OK to have a superior pre amp as compared to the power amp but NOT OK for pre amp to be inferior to the power amp simply because control and power go hand in hand.

I use the words inferior and superior in a particular context and not to be mis-understood.

Power with control is the mantra and we need to have enough control to just about mask the source ( as Richard Dane nicely puts it ) and provide good control to the power amp circuitry ...else the pre amp may expose the source weaknesses.

Just coming off a 4.5 hour music session and i played Eagles in the end as i wanted to end the day with Eagles.

Tell you what - its going to be hard for me to fiddle with the combo that i already have. There is a lot of magic here 

I will now need to go out and audition the Naim amps and then make the decision.

My senses & wallet will now have to make the choice.

Many many many thanks for all your responses..

best regards

Perfect! Congratulations for wading through the dross to come to a sound understanding. Good luck.

Richard Dane posted:

A simple way to look at it is this; there's power (NAP = Naim Audio Power) and then there's control (NAC = Naim Audio Control). And power is useless without control... 

Richard, very well stated.  That sentence may become the most quoted in forum history...

I am relieved you've managed to get to that conclusion.  I was really unsure where this thread was going, but it's been hilarious reading.  I'm a little disappointed that it is now over presumably.  Could you all carry on for a bit just for my entertainment?

...yes agree totally , but why are good people putting down good money on Super Lumina Speaker cables on middling Classic series then.. If the quality of signal is not there - what are the cables doing ?   A 202+250 with best cables you can throw at it could surpass 282+200 with bog standard cables - yes ?

TOBYJUG, REMEMBER I'M THE ARMCHAIR QB:

However, we were on the same page, but Richard had a good point, I now Understand, but in the end he supported my System as being very well balanced. 

Cdx2>282> Hi Cap Dr > 250.2.......

Hence I thanked the Forum for their advice! 

Now with the internet one can google a lot of information, but garbage in, garbage out! I know!!! 

But this information I googled made sense, I don't know where it came from can't find it, but I put it out on the Forum, which can confuse a lot of  members.  

The funny thing, even though it went against my purchase decision of the Nac 282 and stated it was of poor value, it still makes sense!

""Naim NAC202 The NAC202, 282 and 252 are alarmingly similar inside. The main differences in the range are that the full potential of each pre amp is only possible with better power supply options. A NAC202 can only utlise a single HiCap so a HiCap with a digital PSU is as far as you can go with this very capable performer. From £600.

Naim NAC282 The Naim NAC282 is poor value, but still popular, this is largely a NAC202 with the ability to add a second HiCap. Not much else is different in real terms except some marginal improvements in earthing arrangements. Optimum configuration is two HiCaps and a NAPSC. From £1500 second hand.

Naim NAC252 As far as comparisons go with the NAC252 and NAC52 they ought to be similar, but they sound quite different. It's a long way off a NAC552 and not a massive improvement over a NAC282. Again, the ability to power this unit from a SuperCap is the secret, giving it far more individual supply rails raises the performance of an other similar design. Optimal configuration is with a SuperCap PSU. From £2,000 second hand.

Naim NAC552 Naim's outstanding product of the moment."

Just curious Toby, what do you think about the above quote?

Garbage or does it make sense to you!  

And Mind you, I own a 282! 

In other words what distinguishes a 202 from a 282?

Can someone with much more knowledge than myself, please answer the above question, for Understanding on my part!  

Because the information I googled is obviously wrong, according to the Forum and Richard! 

It's garbage. 

Unless, perhaps, the question is : if you've £20k to spend on pre-amp, what one is best?