ProAc D20R Speakers

Hungryhalibut posted:

staffy posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

You posted earlier that you had no bass slam - just a thud, which is why I asked about your amplifier. In my view, you aare over speakerds and when you get into this position, it's expensive to get out of. You really should be looking at a CDx2 with XPS, and a bigger amplifier - Supernait 2 at least. This sort of electronics upfront will kick the speakers into life and hopefully give you what you are looking for. I certainly wouldn't be going for a CD5xs, good as it is. 

Sorry HungaryH, not quite sure what you mean?? I am over speakerds?   The reason I fancied the CD5XS is that after demoing the player with my speakers the overall ambiance was much better.  THEN when a Chord Qute was connected to the CD5XS (which I cannot do with the old CD5)  it sounded sublime.

I am hoping that when the speakers are moved a little more into the room and fully run in, I will get the sound I want.

Thanks for taking an interest HH, Toni and Tobyjug.

IF I don't like it I don't buy it.

Sorry - it's the autocorrect on iPad! It's supposed to say 'overspeakered' i.e. your speakers are in a class above your source and amplifier. Hopefully what I wrote will now make sense. 

LOL....yep.   I am sorta constrained by finance.   Next month the CD5XS, next year a supernait and Hicap.

I'm sure you could get a used CDX2 for the same or less than the cost of a CD5xs. That's what I'd get. 

With patience I got a CDX2 (2002 version) from a Naim dealer at half the price of a new CD5XS.  I went from a original CD5 took me a week to get used to a Row F to Row A presentation, but not looked back since.  2nd hand Digital out versions are a bit rarer to find and tend to be about £500 more than the older versions of CDX2

But in my subjective opinion the older ones ever so slightly better for some reason... perhaps a few extra years being run in?

Got the CDX2 in late September - To explain how good it is, I will explain it in cycling terms - Instead of sitting on my bike, i've been sitting down listening to music.    I've done about 40% less cycling this winter than I normally do, hence getting my ass kicked by people that shouldn't.

So in percentage terms it makes it 40% better than a CD5/FC2

You do tend to think your new purchase is a lot better than everything else.  Especially after spending a sizeable sum of money.   After demoing the CD5XS with the Chord Qute it almost sounded as good as a Chord CD player costing £16,000.   Now I did say almost.

I have now had my ProAc D20R speakers for 3 months.  18" from the rear wall and toed in.   Playing both vinyl or CD the sound is excellent.  The bass no longer dominates the room, which is 18' x 13'.   Sound stage is like having the artist in the room in front of you with musical instruments both to the left and right and seemingly behind the singer.

Next week or the week after I am upgrading the CD5 to a new CD5XS and then I will add the Chord Qute 2 DAC.  In another 3 months I will submit the final post on my system,which by then will be all new.  Hopefully I will attempt to be a little bit more enlightening regarding  the quality of sound.

Whilst I cannot afford the more expensive gear from Naim, the sound quality and enjoyment that the users and members are listening to must be really something.  

Good news! I played yet more with position of my proacs and discovered that the side wall deteriorated the sound on the right speaker. My room is asymmetrical. I'm still a believer in small details and position. The bass is not constant to my ears over time. Lately it was more powerful and rumbling and I can't explain those shifts yet. Makes each listen a surprise

Very interesting reading. 

I will order today ProAC D20R, which is why I have been searching for posts concerning these speakers. 

My room is 12x12 feet although on the one side it opens up to 24 feet (on my left from the sitting position).  My current speakers are 8 ft apart and my listening position is 9.3 ft from each speaker.  Current speakers are exactly 12" from the back wall and 24" from the corner wall (one of them).

There is no way I can increase the back wall distance to more than 15".  

Equipment is NAC-N272 and NAP-250DR.

Should I expect any problems with speaker placement or speaker selection?

 Current speakers are B&W PM1 by the way. 

My experience with proac 148 in a room 14' x 14' that also opens 30' on one side is that the corners really mess with the bass a lot more then back wall. The best placement for me is the speker at the back of the long wall with 4 feet from the corner. Corners are much more evil then back wall I have found. But ideally youd want 2 feet from backwall but it doesnt mess the sound anywhere like the corner. I dont see proac d20 responding badly more then another floor speaker they are very balanced and not oversized. You have to count the whole floor surface 12x24 because your bass energy will extend at the opening. I dont think another floor speaker will fit better but you could be happier with bookshelf its hard to say your in between. 

Pyrrhon posted:

Good news! I played yet more with position of my proacs and discovered that the side wall deteriorated the sound on the right speaker. My room is asymmetrical. I'm still a believer in small details and position. The bass is not constant to my ears over time. Lately it was more powerful and rumbling and I can't explain those shifts yet. Makes each listen a surprise

I've noticed that also. Different days, different sound. Mostly the bass being lacking or booming. I have yet to figure out if it's the Naim, the Proacs or my mood/ears that are changing. I did however seem to notice a correlation between weather (heat, humidity) and the sound. Maybe Proac drivers or something in Naim amps are more sensitive to these changes.

Hi Paristhea,

Your selection of Naim electronics (272/250DR) and the Proac D20R will sound fantastic in the right room.  
They should be a wonderful match.

However, you may be lucky to avoid bass room boom with the speakers so close to the back & side walls.

All bets are off when it comes to the critically important speaker-room interaction.  With the real world space constraints that you face, I recommend only ordering a pair of speakers that you have auditioned in your own room.  If the Proacs don't work for you, then something like the new range of excellent ATC standmounts may be a very good alternative that can be placed closer to a boundary.  Simon-in-Suffolk may be a good person to ask about ATCs, as he has owned their speakers for some time and knows them better than I.

Hope this helps, FT 

Pyrrhon posted:

My experience with proac 148 in a room 14' x 14' that also opens 30' on one side is that the corners really mess with the bass a lot more then back wall. The best placement for me is the speker at the back of the long wall with 4 feet from the corner. Corners are much more evil then back wall I have found. But ideally youd want 2 feet from backwall but it doesnt mess the sound anywhere like the corner. I dont see proac d20 responding badly more then another floor speaker they are very balanced and not oversized. You have to count the whole floor surface 12x24 because your bass energy will extend at the opening. I dont think another floor speaker will fit better but you could be happier with bookshelf its hard to say your in between. 

Thanks for your thoughts Pyrrhon.  I already have ProAC Studio's 140 Mk ii, at my home country and i do like the ProAC sound, actually.  I guess the alternative to the the D20R would be the D Two stand mounter.  Have you heard that one at all?  But i doubt i will get enough bass from the D Two.  I already have the PM1 which are quite good but i used those with the NAP-100.  Now i like more open sound with more detail and more drama.

Foot tapper posted:

Hi Paristhea,

Your selection of Naim electronics (272/250DR) and the Proac D20R will sound fantastic in the right room.  
They should be a wonderful match.

However, you may be lucky to avoid bass room boom with the speakers so close to the back & side walls.

All bets are off when it comes to the critically important speaker-room interaction.  With the real world space constraints that you face, I recommend only ordering a pair of speakers that you have auditioned in your own room.  If the Proacs don't work for you, then something like the new range of excellent ATC standmounts may be a very good alternative that can be placed closer to a boundary.  Simon-in-Suffolk may be a good person to ask about ATCs, as he has owned their speakers for some time and knows them better than I.

Hope this helps, FT 

Many thanks FT, appreciate your thoughts.  I can not listen to the speakers in my own room unfortunately, as they are not stocked  where i am.  I will have to order them and take a chance, unless i do not buy ProAC.

The D20R seems to have a small footprint, i am therefore thinking it will not be a particularly powerful speaker in the bass area at least.  Also because of my room size, i do not go high on the volume.  Currently i do not go above number 40 on the N272, although most of the time i play at around 30.  I therefore wonder whether i will get adverse effects at this volume setting.  Furthermore, the speaker is bottom firing and furthermore i could use a muffler if needed, right?

I do not like ATC and there is no ATC dealer in the country where i work.  I tried PMC Twenty 24, but i didn't like the sound.  I tried Sonus Faber Olympica ii and i liked it a lot, but it is too expensive.  I will buy ProAC only, so I will discuss the placement issue though with my local dealer, who is quite knowledgable.

Thanks and regards,

Hi Paristhea

Okay, I understand.  I find the Response D2 stand mount to be very, very musical indeed, especially when on the right stand.  Lovely.  
Furthermore, it is front ported which should help you with a near boundary placement.

The D20R is a super loudspeaker, though its placement in your room is in the "be very careful" territory.  If you have a good dealer, then listen carefully to their advice.

Good luck, FT

I second FT's reco on the Response D2 - I had them and really liked them, but my room is so large I moved to D28s. I think in any smaller room I may move to I will wish I had the D2s again. Great speakers...but I also like the D28s as well.

Dr Mark, do you get a complete sound with the D2, the full monte?  I only heard them on youtube, via headphones, and they sound very nice, but i thought there was something missing.

Sometimes people complained about the D18 that it didn't have enough bass.  Therefore the D20R would not be any or much different.

The D2 indeed is a fine speaker. It is sometimes argued to be a better balanced speaker than the great D18.

Wonderful on fine tube amps too. 

Chag -

Chag... posted:

A generic question for ProAcs owners. Do you run your ProAcs tweeters in or tweeters out?

They come tweeters in. But I run my D28s out to widen soundstage and allow for toe-in.   

Chag -

ProAc recommend tweeters inside but I know of friends who run them on the outside.

Having used many speakers over the years including Harbeth,  Spendor and Joseph Audio, I've found ProAc to offer the blend of highs, mids and bass that suits my taste best. The D2 is one of the best standmounts that ProAc make, though I'd be interested to hear the new DB1 since it's the latest version of the classic Response 1SC.  

I felt the sound was very complete until I got into a really big room - then I tried adding the ProAc sub, but I have never gotten on with the idea of a sub and it just didn't do it for me (too much fiddling about trying to get it to blend in), so I sold the entire lot and got a pair of used D28s. In other than a really big room the D2s were great...actually even then they were great - just didn't have the bass oomph in the much larger space - as I mentioned above, I will probably regret parting with them some day. (And even now I kind of - wish I could have kept them AND bought the D28s!) In my prior listening room there was no perception of needing more bass, and that was with a Nait XS instead of the SN here.

And I have always run my ProAcs with the tweeters in, even with a slight toe in. Done it that way with Tablette 50 Sigs, the D2s, and now with D28s.

DrMark posted:

I felt the sound was very complete until I got into a really big room - then I tried adding the ProAc sub, but I have never gotten on with the idea of a sub and it just didn't do it for me (too much fiddling about trying to get it to blend in), so I sold the entire lot and got a pair of used D28s. In other than a really big room the D2s were great...actually even then they were great - just didn't have the bass oomph in the much larger space - as I mentioned above, I will probably regret parting with them some day. (And even now I kind of - wish I could have kept them AND bought the D28s!) In my prior listening room there was no perception of needing more bass, and that was with a Nait XS instead of the SN here.

And I have always run my ProAcs with the tweeters in, even with a slight toe in. Done it that way with Tablette 50 Sigs, the D2s, and now with D28s.

I don't like subs, full stop.

I have two sets of stand mounted speakers (Linn Majik 109, B&W PM1), and although i much prefer their appearance (more elegant), i will go for a floorstand speaker this time.

Why did you jump from D2 into D28, rather than D18?  Just the fact they were available as used speakers?

Does the stand make a difference in the case of D2's?  Any opinion on the ribbon tweeter of the D20R?

About subs - I use a small Rel primarily with classical music. I find it adds depth particularly to large scale orchestral pieces. For other genres, depending on mood, I can live with or without it.

Regarding tweeter in or out on Proacs. At one time I had mine on their sides in a bookcase, with tweeters on the outside and they sounded surprisingly good. Actually it was when I got rid of the bookcase and moved them to proper stands that I began struggling with bass boominess. 

Iconoclast posted:

About subs - I use a small Rel primarily with classical music. I find it adds depth particularly to large scale orchestral pieces. For other genres, depending on mood, I can live with or without it.

Regarding tweeter in or out on Proacs. At one time I had mine on their sides in a bookcase, with tweeters on the outside and they sounded surprisingly good. Actually it was when I got rid of the bookcase and moved them to proper stands that I began struggling with bass boominess. 

What model did you have?  Was it a floorstander on its side in a bookcase?

Paristhea posted:

Iconoclast posted:

About subs - I use a small Rel primarily with classical music. I find it adds depth particularly to large scale orchestral pieces. For other genres, depending on mood, I can live with or without it.

Regarding tweeter in or out on Proacs. At one time I had mine on their sides in a bookcase, with tweeters on the outside and they sounded surprisingly good. Actually it was when I got rid of the bookcase and moved them to proper stands that I began struggling with bass boominess. 

What model did you have?  Was it a floorstander on its side in a bookcase?

Studio 115s

Really?