Rel Sub S3 - with PMC 20.21

Was the sub set up properly, or did they just plonk it on the floor and plug it in? It usually takes a fair bit of trial and error with room positioning, crossover level and gain to get a sub working well. Will they let you borrow one to see if you can get it to work in your room?

Last year I managed to get hold of an N-Sub, which I'm using with a NAP200 and Kudos X2s. Now I've got it set up, I wouldn't be without it. I don't really have room for a big pair of speakers, but the sub is hidden behind the sofa. 

Have you considered maybe the 20.23's or the 20.24's? I haven't heard the 20.24's properly but I must say the 20.23's put out a lovely, deep low end when matched nicely. It was probably the most pleasant surprise with the speaker for me, as I was expecting this to be an area where it might have fallen short.

Hi S3 was not positioned well I started moving it myself ..... but ran out of time. Re the other speakers totally agree.....23/24 are superb however I use my 21 as desktop monitors for my computer they are fantastic.......however I miss those 2 octaves. I was surprised that I could not attenuate the S3 more if this could have been done it would have been great....I had the S3 on minimum and that cone was certainly moving...quite dynamically!

Does anybody else have an S3 or S5 successfully set up with pmc''s

Richard

How was the Rel speaker cable connected in this system.

Hi I have a S5 which I use with B&W 803 Diamond. The cone in my sub is barely moving but blends seamlessly with my speakers. I've used subs before and they never lasted, but this one is so different it works beautifully with music. I went by the Rel way and placed in the corner off to one side, I had it dialed in within a few tracks.Im sure the S3 will share all the same DNA. 

You can't tune the REL by just looking at the dial markings. They only work best after proper placement and integration. I am surprised that they have been dialled to the minimum already.

My advice would be to follow the instructions supplied, they are clear and work,this particular sub can receive hi and low level at the same time.The sub goes from silent to max on the controls.  By dialing, I mean adjusting.

Hi many thanks for the replies ...... this is interesting. Especially David P's comments re cone movement....with the S3 dialed to minimum ..... it was a beast. The 272 preamp was at volume level 50 driving the PMC20.21 very well.......the cone movement was approx 6mm on the sub - this surprised me ... obviously this is track dependant...I played  Ruby Amnfu-Standing Still ...01 - Anyone Who Knows What Love Is (Will Understand) ..... this is an amazing track ..... I was shocked and terrified by the base line.......I nearly brought the ceiling down!!!!!  I can only think that the positioning of the sub was wrong. I was after something very subtle! Could it be the 20.21's are relatively inefficient .... needing higher volumes.....this then allowing the sub efficiency to take over????

I suspect something was wrong with how they set it up. When I had an nSub, many years ago, it was possible to set it to perfectly integrate with the main speakers, so that it simply added extension rather than volume - which of course is what it's supposed to do. With the 21 you'd probably have the crossover set at around 60Hz. Once the crossover is set you add volume, starting at zero, to get the sound you want. When that's done you simply use the 272 volume control and the sub level will increase or decrease accordingly, but remain in balance with the main speakers. The REL would normally be connected off the back of the speakers, but if it has low level inputs you can connect it to the 272 with a suitable phono lead. 

Hmm ... I have contacted Rel .... I think they will end up contacting Audio T in Manchester .... to run through their set up ........ something has to be wrong....  Will post my findings as and when...

Cheers

I just had a look at the Rel manual it it looks very hard to get it wired up wrongly. If using the low level connection you just plug in the phono leads and set the crossover, phase and level, and that's it. Assuming it was connected to the 272's pre-out phono plugs, it should just work. Very odd. 

Hi I have just had feedback from REl thought I would share..........

''Very simple feedback for you

There are 3 cables sticking out of the REL cables. A red A yellow and A black

Simply turn the amp off and then remove the yellow REL cable leaving a red and black on the right hand channel. This will reduce the volume by around 8db as the REL input will have a 75K load not a 150K load. This is a deliberate design feature.

This should give you the headroom you require to get the perfect balance between the REL and PMC's

Enjoy and feel free to come back with any additional questions :0)

James Edwards
REL UK Team.''

I think this was the issue ..... my comment to Audio T was it sounds like the level is at least 5dB to high......no matter what..... I will be contacting Audio T shortly....

Richard

This sounds like connecting the rel to the amplifier's speaker terminals - something you should not do with Naim. In any even, it also sounds as though you'd only be connecting to the right channel - so if the bass is on the left you won't gear it through the sub.  It sounds very odd - did you tell them you were using the low or high level connection? If it's the high, you must take it from the back of the speakers, not the amp. 

Hi thanks for the reply ........... good point about connecting ..... is this so that the cable capacitence/impedence is within Naims tollerances? Also you are right ... one channel will be missing!!!

I will get back to Rel....

Cheers...

It's something technical like that, but whatever, Naim's advice is not to do it. When I had an nSub I was advised by Naim to take the signal from the preamp; whether that's the best for a Rel I don't know. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

This sounds like connecting the rel to the amplifier's speaker terminals - something you should not do with Naim. In any even, it also sounds as though you'd only be connecting to the right channel - so if the bass is on the left you won't gear it through the sub.  It sounds very odd - did you tell them you were using the low or high level connection? If it's the high, you must take it from the back of the speakers, not the amp. 

HH

Why not with Naim ? I had a similar query and i was told 2 contrasting opinions - one on my thread and one off it from Naim.

I got the best response when i connected my subwoofer to the speaker terminals at the rear of my Naim nait 5i.

IMO - it is not necessary to connect to the speakers binding posts - as the only method.

When we are connecting to the back panel of the integrated amp - we are sensing voltage and not current and so there should not be any load felt by the amp at all.

Sometimes the crossover design of the speaker can affect as well.

Note : I connected BOTH channels to the subwoofer

regards

Will let you know how I get on....

mpw posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

This sounds like connecting the rel to the amplifier's speaker terminals - something you should not do with Naim. In any even, it also sounds as though you'd only be connecting to the right channel - so if the bass is on the left you won't gear it through the sub.  It sounds very odd - did you tell them you were using the low or high level connection? If it's the high, you must take it from the back of the speakers, not the amp. 

HH

Why not with Naim ? I had a similar query and i was told 2 contrasting opinions - one on my thread and one off it from Naim.

I got the best response when i connected my subwoofer to the speaker terminals at the rear of my Naim nait 5i.

IMO - it is not necessary to connect to the speakers binding posts - as the only method.

When we are connecting to the back panel of the integrated amp - we are sensing voltage and not current and so there should not be any load felt by the amp at all.

Sometimes the crossover design of the speaker can affect as well.

Note : I connected BOTH channels to the subwoofer

regards

 

Clearly you know more about it than Naim then. They have always said not to connect to the amplifier terminals. 

I have Rel sub and running it through speaker terminals on nap300 no problem. Sounds great.

Despite the oft-quoted recommendation to run high level connections from the speaker terminals rather than the amp outputs, my dealer suggested that I could do the latter with my NAP200. Not what I was expecting him to say, but he's been in the business for long enough, so he should know what he's talking about. Having said that, I'm going to press him on the matter again before I try it.

MPW and Mariovno,

there are threads on here that you can find with a search where Naim users (including some Nait 5i users) have experienced issues when trying to connect REL subs from the terminals on the Naim amp.  All issues were cured by connecting from the terminals on the speakers.  What's even where no apparent issues were experienced, changing to speaker terminal connection seems to have consistently resulted in better sound.

So..  it's worth repeating that Naim advise against connecting subwoofer high level connections to the amp terminals.  Even REL (back in theRichard Lord days) drew up a special connection advisory and diagram for Naim owners.

Is there a difference in connecting a REL to the amp's speaker terminals or the actual speaker binding posts? Seems the same to me.

In any case I tried following REL's advice (speaker posts to REL high level in my case) vs a line level connection into an Anti-Mode 8033S-II. I found no difference in speed, tone, etc between the two however the Anti-Mode allowed me to get better bass in the listening area. My sub is crossed over at around 40-45hz. Speakers are front ported and have similar specs to the Twenty 21s

My rectangular room still suffers from some standing waves at one end and at high volume but this happens with or without the sub. I suppose the only way to solve that problem would be with proper room treatment in those corners.

Is there a purpose made cable available for connecting a REL Sub to the Speaker terminals at the back of speakers. This is when Naim Amps are part of the system. 

Iconoclast, Naim amps seem to get upset when the REL sub cabling is connected to the amp terminals. When connected at the speaker end, it's not "seen" by the amp so doesn't get upset (so long as the speaker cabling itself conforms to Naim's recommendations).

I had to sort this out recently in my own setup, with helpful suggestions from HH and others.

I have a 2007 REL R-205 that I'd hooked directly to the output terminals on my  2007 SN, along with my Fidelity Acoustics RFM-2 floor-standers. I'd used this setup for some time, and the sound was pretty amazing (I thought).

Then I came across a thread or two in which the business of not connecting a subwoofer to the output terminals on Naim amps was discussed and clarified. I took the advice to heart a few weeks ago. I stripped back the outer cover on the Neutrik/Speakon cable provided by REL, thereby exposing sufficient lengths of the red, black and yellow wires to fix the connections on the speaker binding posts.

There was an immediate and noticeable difference -- not huge initially, but it was there, as verified by my wife's hypersensitive hearing. Over the last couple of weeks, the improvement has become far more noticeable, with the quality of the bass improving (both airier and at the same time tighter), and the Fidelity Acoustics responding to the SN differently, as if the amp had been confused in some way but had now sorted things out properly (a terrible simile, I know, but about as good as you'll get from a non-techie). Everything simply seems richer and "truer" -- I'm very pleased that I made the adjustment, which involved minimal work and eliminated any possibility (real or imagined) that I might damage the amp with my previous setup. Obviously, YMMV, but I'm a believer.