'Golden' Ears

Hi Ken,   I'm OK A/B'ing on my own system,  but tend to be all over the place with other systems. I'm very unsure with dealer demo's & it takes me a time to get the feel of the different room.

I am not golden eared, but I do believe that as we in the business are exposed to so much stuff we do become more attuned to certain aspects of presentation than others. 

I do believe some people are more aware of certain things too. For example, my manager is unbelievably good at picking out when speakers are wired out of phase, and it seems quite a few people can pick up on this. Yet I just think it doesn't sound very good, or at best sounds weird. As time has gone by I do think I pick up on it more than before. Given this experience, I'm rather inclined to think that nurture has a lot more to do with this than nature.

In terms of demos it seems to depend a lot on investment. If the listener is invested in the listening process then the results can be significantly different from when the listener is not invested in the process. i.e. if someone has a tendency to listen to flashes or bits of music in the demo room, then their investment is likely to be low - listening for differences instead of emotional connection - so the result is a fundamentally unsatisfactory one from a sales point of view because the sales person knows the person hasn't really invested the energy into the process, partly (usually) due to low expectations. Sometimes, we can try to guide people to 'let the music wash over', 'try to relax', or something like that. Having a cup of tea helps settle a listener too sometimes. It might seem like voodoo, and the listener may think we're trying to pull a fast one, so we can only make such suggestions carefully. It depends on the listener/salesperson dynamic.

Obviously, the people in the experiment you mention would have been invested. I guess the question is whether in those days reviewers had a tendency to listen for differences rather than emotional connection, and over the last 30 years I've disagreed with a lot of reviewers on all kinds of kit I've heard myself and do occasionally find myself wondering out loud "what the hell was this guy listening to?". 

Still, LP12 versus Planar3 should be quite a difference...

In the end we all listen for different things and in different ways to a greater or lesser extent, and to a degree we want different things from our systems. So overall it's difficult to say 'golden eared versus cloth eared'. 

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

As the OP states there are times when the difference in an A/B comparison is obvious, but I feel I am a good spotter when differences are very subtle.  However, it is something I rarely do, as despite hearing differences, it's a complete waste of time.  Might be ok for a reviewer to give an analytical account of things, but no good for determining whether the difference you hear is preferable in the long term.  When trialing anything, however subtle the change might be, I live with B, and if after a week or so I am sure the music is more enjoyable and engaging, then B stays, and I am unlikely to go back to A ever again, not even to make the comparison.  If B is sounding fantastic I lose all interest in what A sounded like.  If I'm thinking about A while listening to B, then B simply isn't working, so revert to position A.  Works for me, golden eared or not.

There may be a few. In general, though, if someone (here, for instance) raves about the difference between A and B and I only hear a small difference, I have greater issues with his credibility than I do with my ears.

Case in point--A Naim dealer tried to talk me into replacing my 82 with a 282. We did an A-B test. He shook his head and rolled his eyes while his assistant openly sneered at the differences. As the differences were minuscule, I excused myself and never went back. He's out of business now.

Differences are easy to spot.

Deciding which one is preferable takes a bit longer.

JRHardee posted:

There may be a few. In general, though, if someone (here, for instance) raves about the difference between A and B and I only hear a small difference, I have greater issues with his credibility than I do with my ears.

 

Good observation.

This year's "dramatic Improvement" that makes last year's "delight" sound "broken" is all too often rolled out on this forum. Next year, this year's "dramatic improvement" becomes "broken"......................

Makes you wonder who's kidding who sometimes.

Equally, I'm convinced that disposable income plays its part. A bachelor with £100k pa disposable is likely to view a £10k "upgrade" as peanuts compared to a man with wife and three kids to support with a disposable income of a mere £10k pa.

If the latter says the £10k upgrade is brilliant, I might be inclined to audition.

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,   I'm OK A/B'ing on my own system,  but tend to be all over the place with other systems. I'm very unsure with dealer demo's & it takes me a time to get the feel of the different room.

Good point Mike-B,  unfamiliarity may play a key part in all this...

enjoy

ken

Frank Abela posted:

... I'm rather inclined to think that nurture has a lot more to do with this than nature.

In terms of demos it seems to depend a lot on investment. If the listener is invested in the listening process then the results can be significantly different from when the listener is not invested in the process. i.e. if someone has a tendency to listen to flashes or bits of music in the demo room, then their investment is likely to be low - listening for differences instead of emotional connection - so the result is a fundamentally unsatisfactory one from a sales point of view because the sales person knows the person hasn't really invested the energy into the process, partly (usually) due to low expectations. Sometimes, we can try to guide people to 'let the music wash over', 'try to relax', or something like that. Having a cup of tea helps settle a listener too sometimes. It might seem like voodoo, and the listener may think we're trying to pull a fast one, so we can only make such suggestions carefully. It depends on the listener/salesperson dynamic.

Obviously, the people in the experiment you mention would have been invested. I guess the question is whether in those days reviewers had a tendency to listen for differences rather than emotional connection, and over the last 30 years I've disagreed with a lot of reviewers on all kinds of kit I've heard myself and do occasionally find myself wondering out loud "what the hell was this guy listening to?". 

Still, LP12 versus Planar3 should be quite a difference...

In the end we all listen for different things and in different ways to a greater or lesser extent, and to a degree we want different things from our systems. So overall it's difficult to say 'golden eared versus cloth eared'. 

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

apparently for this listening test, as i recall, the subject was asked not only to say that there was a difference -- but to identify the component playing (A or B) -- i guess single blindly (i really dont want to start a discussion on blind testing -- its been done to death here!)

yes, the point about us wanting different things from our systems is i believe fully accepted -- i just wondered whether there was a special ability not only to hear differences, but to attribute them... within a limite set of choices.

your 'nurture' vs 'nature' is a very interesting point... allow me to carelessly extrapolate and ask -- to what extent is differentiating (A is different from B) and attributing (is it A or B?)  a 'learned' skill as oppose to a 'born with' skill.  i suspect there is probably quite a bit of 'born with' here -- i.e. 'golen ears'!!! 

enjoy

ken

SongStream posted:

As the OP states there are times when the difference in an A/B comparison is obvious, but I feel I am a good spotter when differences are very subtle.  However, it is something I rarely do, as despite hearing differences, it's a complete waste of time.  Might be ok for a reviewer to give an analytical account of things, but no good for determining whether the difference you hear is preferable in the long term.  When trialing anything, however subtle the change might be, I live with B, and if after a week or so I am sure the music is more enjoyable and engaging, then B stays, and I am unlikely to go back to A ever again, not even to make the comparison.  If B is sounding fantastic I lose all interest in what A sounded like.  If I'm thinking about A while listening to B, then B simply isn't working, so revert to position A.  Works for me, golden eared or not.

 

I am going through this very same scenario with A being my NAC282 and B being a NAC252 borrowed from my dealer. I did a very lengthy and anally retentive (suppose that should be 'scientific') A/B test. I am now just listening to B, have not gone back to A and not thinking about A at all. I think I know where this is headed and it will involve money changing hands. Bugger!

JRHardee posted:

There may be a few. In general, though, if someone (here, for instance) raves about the difference between A and B and I only hear a small difference, I have greater issues with his credibility than I do with my ears.

Case in point--A Naim dealer tried to talk me into replacing my 82 with a 282. We did an A-B test. He shook his head and rolled his eyes while his assistant openly sneered at the differences. As the differences were minuscule, I excused myself and never went back. He's out of business now.

in general, i would say it doesnt really matter if someone raves about difference between A and B that you consider miniscule, especially if you are clear about what you prefer. i have read many stories here where someone has changed their minds over time about merit of a component -- sometimes ging with what the retailer might have suggested (or not...)

enjoy

ken

Don Atkinson posted:

This year's "dramatic Improvement" that makes last year's "delight" sound "broken" is all too often rolled out on this forum. Next year, this year's "dramatic improvement" becomes "broken"......................

Makes you wonder who's kidding who sometimes.

Equally, I'm convinced that disposable income plays its part. A bachelor with £100k pa disposable is likely to view a £10k "upgrade" as peanuts compared to a man with wife and three kids to support with a disposable income of a mere £10k pa.

If the latter says the £10k upgrade is brilliant, I might be inclined to audition.

 

i suspect the 'sounds broken' is somewhat tongue in cheek. else this would mean its a waste of time to listen to, for example a nicely serviced 32.5/Hicap/250/Kans compared to the big statement and Ovators. The little system will still have the essence of the music, i believe...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

This year's "dramatic Improvement" that makes last year's "delight" sound "broken" is all too often rolled out on this forum. Next year, this year's "dramatic improvement" becomes "broken"......................

Makes you wonder who's kidding who sometimes.

Equally, I'm convinced that disposable income plays its part. A bachelor with £100k pa disposable is likely to view a £10k "upgrade" as peanuts compared to a man with wife and three kids to support with a disposable income of a mere £10k pa.

If the latter says the £10k upgrade is brilliant, I might be inclined to audition.

 

i suspect the 'sounds broken' is somewhat tongue in cheek. else this would mean its a waste of time to listen to, for example a nicely serviced 32.5/Hicap/250/Kans compared to the big statement and Ovators. The little system will still have the essence of the music, i believe...

enjoy

ken

The 32.5/Hicap/250/Kan combo was my first real step into quality hifi, replacing a Marantz PM310 and Wharfedale speakers that were so out of depth with my LP12/Basik/K5. I got endless hours of joy from that set up. So much fun.

I don't think I am "golden eared", but I know what I look for and I know what I like when it comes to music and sound quality.  When I am evaluating an audio upgrade, I usually go by gut feel: does the upgrade make the music sound more present, more enjoyable? Do I want to listen more or less over time?  

I don't like harsh treble, and I prefer the bass notes to be dry (i.e., starts and stops that are easily heard). In live music, bass notes seem to vary wildly by venue, and are often more loose and flubby than what I hear in my listening room.  That's ok by me because I am not going for "real" in my playback. I am going for, lack of a better term, "high fidelity". I want to hear as clear as possible what's on the recording.

As far as A/B comparisons, I have often asked Mrs. Hook to assist. I do believe she has "golden ears", at least relative to me.  She insists on lower volume, and has an uncanny knack of hearing clear differences between sources, cables or whatever. Once I have decided some upgrade on home demo is worth keeping, I will employ her as my sanity check. Fortunately, to date, her blind A/B selections have only confirmed my opinions.  Were they to contradict, and if the expenditure was large, I am pretty sure I would defer to her better judgement.  We'll see...

ATB.

Hook

Alba1320 posted:

CF was alluding to Flat Earth era Linn, and their dismissal of the 'importance' of superficial Hi-Fi stuff, such as soundstage, imaging, 'rice paper colourations' etc., the very things that, then and now, most reviewers seem to get excited about (as far as I can see), and would therefore likely complain that the LP12 didn't image very well, or was coloured etc., while seemingly ignoring what Hi-Fi should be about, the music.

 

CF, a rarity in my experience, talked about the performance of equipment in musical terms (pitch definition/stability, rhythm, whether he could hear what all the musicians were playing, whether they seemed to be playing in time with one another etc., and ultimately, whether the end result was satisfyingly musical), rather than being merely 'audiophile approved sound', and he was therefore able to identify the superiority of LP12 over the Rega, for the 'correct reasons', in Linn's opinion.

 

Personally, there's no such thing as 'golden eared' – at best, all that any reviewer can do is offer their own, unbiased, subjective impression, based upon their own likes/dislikes, which may or may not align with the reader's, and their opinion is no more expert or worthy than anyone else’s when it comes to an individual making a decision on what to use in their own system; At worst, you have potential bias, commercial influence etc. They will, of course, have likely tried a lot more equipment than the average person, but that doesn't change the fundamental point of choosing items for use in your own system – only the individual can decide what's right for them.

thanks Alba1320 for providing some useful background. yeah, i definitely remember 'rice paper colourations' !!! Oh my!

someone once explained to me that a good aural memory is a key part of what can loosely be referred to as 'golden ears'. through my hifi journeys, i have met people who i believe have very good such memory (including one well known retailer). perhaps the folks who failed the Linn test didnt have it, and therefore found it easier to focus on other aspects such as bass/treble, imaging etc...??

i believe we all accept that reviews are subjective (although they seem to have quite a disproportionate commercial impact) and that we choose according to what we hear -- cloth ears or not -- but i recall a guy who visited what was then SoundOrg in London, with his friend, who he believed would be able to help him choose a pair of speakers -- claiming his friend  had a special ability in this area...

enjoy

ken

Hook posted:

 

As far as A/B comparisons, I have often asked Mrs. Hook to assist. I do believe she has "golden ears", at least relative to me.  She insists on lower volume, and has an uncanny knack of hearing clear differences between sources, cables or whatever. Once I have decided some upgrade on home demo is worth keeping, I will employ her as my sanity check. Fortunately, to date, her blind A/B selections have only confirmed my opinions.  Were they to contradict, and if the expenditure was large, I am pretty sure I would defer to her better judgement.  We'll see...

ATB.

Hook

Ah! Hook, you have just provided the 'hook' that was missing in all this. There is a general belief that women are 'better' listeners and descriminators as far as hifi assessments are concerned. 

and this reminds me of the time that i had a demo of Technics SL1700 vs LP12 (cant remember the exact config) at the old Subjective Audio (what an excellent name!!!) in Camden Twn. After spinning just one disc, my wife was suprised i wanted to play more recirds as to her it was very obvious the LP12 was different, and better. 

Conclusion: Women have what we are loosely referring to here as 'Golden ears' ...

enjoy

ken

Just been reading through this thread, I'm inclined to think most women have what I call selective hearing....based on the instinct of knowing their partners likes and dislikes...and as has rightly been said reviewers are influenced by outside commercial concerns based on their paymasters likes and dislikes.

Forums can likewise be based on, I've made a huge outlay financially, I have to say it's better or I can't afford the outlay so therfore I don't want it to be better..

One can only go on ones own instincts, does what I'm listening too, cause me to be lost in the music....if it does.... it must be good weather it's A or B

Like Hook; I don't think I'm golden-eared either, but I know what sounds better to me when I hear it - and if I can afford it; I want it.

I'm currently using my Nait XS2 in my main system in place of the 552/500, and boy, is it frustrating. Now here we have a damn good amplifier (which costs about 4% of the price of a 552/500 if you please!) and would easily satisfy the bulk of the populace, but I want my 552/(DR) 500 back a.s.a.p.

John.

J.N. posted:

Like Hook; I don't think I'm golden-eared either, but I know what sounds better to me when I hear it - and if I can afford it; I want it.

I'm currently using my Nait XS2 in my main system in place of the 552/500, and boy, is it frustrating. Now here we have a damn good amplifier (which costs about 4% of the price of a 552/500 if you please!) and would easily satisfy the bulk of the populace, but I want my 552/(DR) 500(DR) back a.s.a.p.

John.

 

teacher's correction in red John and comment "must work harder!" 

enjoy

ken

wenger2015 posted:

Just been reading through this thread, I'm inclined to think most women have what I call selective hearing....based on the instinct of knowing their partners likes and dislikes...

not sure that women 'selective' hearing is based on the instinct of knowing their partners like and dislikes...

but of course i may have misunderstood what you mean by 'selective'.

what i was referring to was the general belief that women have a better ability to tell differences in music reproduction systems (our hifi systems) and that they can much more quickly say which is better and why...

Linn missed a trick then, they should have hired women as retailers (actually there were quite a few at the time as i recall...)

enjoy

ken

Not sure on the women's ability to distinguish between good hi fi....maybe because I've not experienced that personally...but you mbut women as retailers?...may  cause problems in trying to listen to the music

Not sure on the women's ability to distinguish between good hi fi....maybe because I've not experienced that personally...but you may well be right.....but women as retailers?...may  cause problems in being more easily persuaded in parting with large amounts of cash...

wenger2015 posted:

Not sure on the women's ability to distinguish between good hi fi....maybe because I've not experienced that personally...but you may well be right.....but women as retailers?...may  cause problems in being more easily persuaded in parting with large amounts of cash...

ha ha... exactly what happened!!!! 

enjoy

ken

Like Songstream, I can easily spot differences if I'm listening to my main system but I need to have the piece of kit here for a week or so before I can really tell if I'm going to like it or not. I do like to put the old bit back before making my mind up though. SWMBO's a good test listener because she has no interest in hi-fi & I never tell her what she's hearing or what she's supposed to hear. We really want to like some things and if we're not careful we can overlook the negatives. I can rapidly get bored swapping over componentry; it's nice to just suit back & listen at length.

It's human nature to wax lyrical about some new bit of hi-fi we've got and enthusiasm can quickly generate oodles of hyperbole - "It's off this planet makes X sound broken I mean it entirely smokes it destroys it etc etc." But as soon as I read this type of thing I immediately question the credibility of the person posting. I enjoy listening to other folks' systems but I struggle to relate the sounds they produce to my own system. 

I am quick to spot differences in replay, and usually successful in choosing replay that brings lasting pleasure, but I find this sort of technically [replay aspect] detailed listening tiring. Very tiring.

I am not sure that I would call my ears “Golden” though. It is just that with a great deal of experience of real music making both in the audience and among the players, I have a good basis for discriminating in favour of replay that is musically closer to reality.

Thus I have a healthy scepticism about the wilder hifi aspects of ultra separated instrumental lines and stereo imagery and so on ... 

This puts me at odds with a great many, which I accept as fair enough.

ATB from George

While I would argue that most people would hear differences when properly presented the differences..... There is also two other aspects to it:

1. The psychological aspect, you seem to hear the difference of a more expensive kit more easy as you want to hear it.

2. The overall conditions, the room.., your personal mood..., the specific appreciation for the music you are listening to.

So to some extent real, to some extent voodoo.....