'Golden' Ears

I read a review recently on the nap250dr compared to nap 250 non dr, the reviewer (hi-fi news) used the phrase, the dr was incremently better, which gave the impression their was little difference, I note on the forum, comments such as no comparison, night and day difference, ect ect ...Quite possibly the reviewer was holding back a little, but I much prefer that description compared to 'it smokes'.... But I suppose what really counts is ones own ears dependant on our own preferences..

Bert Schurink posted:

While I would argue that most people would hear differences when properly presented the differences..... There is also two other aspects to it:

1. The psychological aspect, you seem to hear the difference of a more expensive kit more easy as you want to hear it.

2. The overall conditions, the room.., your personal mood..., the specific appreciation for the music you are listening to.

 

So to some extent real, to some extent voodoo.....

Dear Bert,

I have always been blessed with finding that the cheaper a piece of replay equipment was, the easier it was to appreciate its quality! As over the years, the entry level of Naim caught up with the higher models it became very easy to positively enjoy downgrading.

Perhaps that is the opposite to the psychological tendencies of most members of the Forum though.

ATB from George

I have always listened to my wife's views on upgrades to the system. We both listen to music together so there would be absolutely no point in getting anything that she did not like. She has, on occasion, tolerated my desire to upgrade in the face of little benefit, but on the basis that there was no disbenefit to the sound.

On two occasions I have bought equipment without her being involved, but in both cases the improvements were blindingly obvious to me and both received her seal of approval. One was interesting as it involved a change in power cables (all of this well before Naim introduced their PowerLines), that were almost completely hidden from view. She had been away on business and I arranged for a trial of the cables throughout the whole system; the evening's demonstration went so well, in my view, that I just could not bear to part with the cables and bought a set, leaving the demonstration set in place. When my wife returned one of her first comments was that the system was sounding so much better than it had. The other change was to the speakers, harder to conceal, but again the change was met with approval.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

I have always been blessed with finding that the cheaper a piece of replay equipment was, the easier it was to appreciate its quality! As over the years, the entry level of Naim caught up with the higher models it became very easy to positively enjoy downgrading.

Perhaps that is the opposite to the psychological tendencies of most members of the Forum though.

ATB from George

interesting George... is the corollary true -- i.e. that with the more expensive replay kit, its more difficult to 'appreciate' its quality. i guess the keyword is here 'appreciate'? -- which may suggest you are tinking in terms of relative priorities -- in which case i think i get what you mean...

enjoy

ken

at one point i was running a system based on nSat speakers. i recall my wife saying 'i think you need bigger speakers' -- which is very strange given that we have Linn Kans in the second system 'which she consiered 'hers'. but that was he licence i needed to look for something else -- and when a chance to buy SL2 cam up -- i went for them -- and have never looked back.

enjoy

ken

tonym posted:

Like Songstream, I can easily spot differences if I'm listening to my main system but I need to have the piece of kit here for a week or so before I can really tell if I'm going to like it or not. I do like to put the old bit back before making my mind up though. SWMBO's a good test listener because she has no interest in hi-fi & I never tell her what she's hearing or what she's supposed to hear. We really want to like some things and if we're not careful we can overlook the negatives. I can rapidly get bored swapping over componentry; it's nice to just suit back & listen at length.

It's human nature to wax lyrical about some new bit of hi-fi we've got and enthusiasm can quickly generate oodles of hyperbole - "It's off this planet makes X sound broken I mean it entirely smokes it destroys it etc etc." But as soon as I read this type of thing I immediately question the credibility of the person posting. I enjoy listening to other folks' systems but I struggle to relate the sounds they produce to my own system. 

 

yes, exactly. its enjoyable to 'wax lyrical' isnt it? but i feel we are running out of superlatives now... you only have to read various reports on here relating to various cable and DR upgrades 

when its a bit warm, i would like to visit to experience what 3NAP500s sound like..

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

I have always been blessed with finding that the cheaper a piece of replay equipment was, the easier it was to appreciate its quality! As over the years, the entry level of Naim caught up with the higher models it became very easy to positively enjoy downgrading.

Perhaps that is the opposite to the psychological tendencies of most members of the Forum though.

ATB from George

interesting George... is the corollary true -- i.e. that with the more expensive replay kit, its more difficult to 'appreciate' its quality. i guess the keyword is here 'appreciate'? -- which may suggest you are tinking in terms of relative priorities -- in which case i think i get what you mean...

enjoy

ken

Dear Ken,

When a most grand piece of replay equipment has drilled a massive hole in your current account, you expect it to perform in miraculous fashion ...

When a more modest priced piece does almost as much without devastating the bank account, I found I could easily forgive the occasional shortcoming. Especially when the shortcoming was to do with stereo placement and instrumental separation, which aspects are problematic for me.

Those were and are my priorities, though years ago I had not crystallised my thoughts well, and was so much less decisive ...

For example, I cannot listen to stereo on my HD 600s. I find the spread totally distracting, but in mono the result is musically balanced and though not quite natural [like black and white photography], it far preferable to the over emphatic “technicolour” that is most stereo! I forget the method and concentrate easily on the message ...

Different stroke for different folks, and I expect no agreement on this.

But in this way I have now simplified replay to something far from hair shirt, but immensely communicative of the quint-essence.

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Ken,

When a most grand piece of replay equipment has drilled a massive hole in your current account, you expect it to perform in miraculous fashion ...

When a more modest priced piece does almost as much without devastating the bank account, I found I could easily forgive the occasional shortcoming. Especially when the shortcoming was to do with stereo placement and instrumental separation, which aspects are problematic for me.

Those were and are my priorities, though years ago I had not crystallised my thoughts well, and was so much less decisive ...

 

.....

ATB from George

Ah, i see what you mean George and i think i agree because i have run both levels of system -- and with the higher tier kit -- expectations are definitely very high -- almost in proportion to the spend (whatever that means?).

however, i suspect the instrument separation thing that has been talked about here may be a matter of terminology, 'in my view' (as my Danish colleagues at work say)...

for me, its not just the 'separation' as such -- it the fact that i hear more musical lines and i can follow them more clearly and therefore can appreciate them. 

but i agree that one can get carried away with 'presentation' rather than 'content' -- a loaded subject in its own right!

enjoy

ken

Dear Ken,

When I was less than very young forty years ago I used to make a cone of paper [foolscap - for those that don’t know, bit bigger than A4] and stick a 78 needle through the fine end. Put the gramophone to 78 and play records. No finesse at all! But hugely communicative, and because the paper was so light, no wear on the record either! 

Yet the replay placed you standing at the back of Abbey Road, the Queens Hall, or the Kingsway Hall or wherever HMV had made the recording. No separation of instrument, but strangely the most lucid of balances for the instruments. 

I could listen for a whole hour like that. Twelve 78 sides! A Beethoven Symphony or perhaps Elgar’s Violin concerto ... absolutely wrapt in the immersive experience. 

Separation is the false effect of making the players seem apart from each other, and balance is about the players being bound in an ensemble so tight that it becomes as good as real. Each player clear and yet in a team and playing off his team-mates ...

Music making comes from the composer who has a theory inside his head, and music exists in the head. The more compact the sense of music making [as presented by replay] the nearer it is to the composer’s own brain and original theory!

Point source if you like ...

ATB from George

Of course the big end of the cone was about three inches and I cupped my ear into that. Mono in one ear ...

But the brian soon adapts to this singular disadvantage,

ATB from George 

Who is Brian?

Byian? Who is Bryian! 

[Every one knows who biguth is ...]

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Ken,

When I was less than very young forty years ago I used to make a cone of paper [foolscap - for those that don’t know, bit bigger than A4] and stick a 78 needle through the fine end. Put the gramophone to 78 and play records. No finesse at all! But hugely communicative, and because the paper was so light, no wear on the record either! 

Yet the replay placed you standing at the back of Abbey Road, the Queens Hall, or the Kingsway Hall or wherever HMV had made the recording. No separation of instrument, but strangely the most lucid of balances for the instruments. 

I could listen for a whole hour like that. Twelve 78 sides! A Beethoven Symphony or perhaps Elgar’s Violin concerto ... absolutely wrapt in the immersive experience. 

Separation is the false effect of making the players seem apart from each other, and balance is about the players being bound in an ensemble so tight that it becomes as good as real. Each player clear and yet in a team and playing off his team-mates ...

Music making comes from the composer who has a theory inside his head, and music exists in the head. The more compact the sense of music making [as presented by replay] the nearer it is to the composer’s own brain and original theory!

Point source if you like ...

ATB from George

i think i see whre you are coming from George -- but i am afraid this hobby of hours is loaded with imprecise terminology whose meaning is at best ambiguous.  i have attended live concerts and have enjoyed hearing indiviual 'instruments', including voice -- but all in teh context of an integrated performance. i efinitely agree that separation without an integrated musical context is at best simply wrong! but i think i am talking about the kind that you hear on live music, no fragmentation, nor congestion.

going back to the point about expectations -- i definitely agree that high end systems tend to raise expectations and it is very disappointing (in fact, depressing) for those expectations not tobe met. However, there is another side to this coin -- when the expectations are met -- oh boy -- it is extremely uplifting and you stop thinking about how much you have spent. in fact that is the only way i can justify the expenditure in my system. when its working OK, it is extremely fulfilling.

i am not sure i fully understand you paper cone contraption -- hard for me to imagine -- but i suppose the fact that i enjoy my LP12, with all its known failings must mean i am not after 'perfection', whatever that is...

enjoy

ken

If I could read sheet music , I could by-pass the listening chain completely and have the music playing in my head !

Although It would be interesting what the score on paper would look like of some of my favourite recordings.

Never has a truer collection of words be posted on this esteemed forum

It is how the deaf Beethoven studied Bach’s compositions ...

I'm not sure if tha

TOBYJUG posted:

If I could read sheet music , I could by-pass the listening chain completely and have the music playing in my head !

This happens to me anyhow. after a music session -- i often have the 'lingering tune' after effect -- i.e. tunes playing in my head! as it happens, this is one of the tests i use to confirm that i am happy with the way the system is performing... 

enjoy

ken

I'm not sure if that's right,  but music in your head is quite acceptable, voices ! That's a whole different matter 

The various lines of music are conventionally called voices. I am staggered that you seem not to know this.

Here is a recording with three lines, from the time when the Roman Catholic Church still castrated boys with good voices!

One is human and the other two are a piano and a violin ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws

ATB from George

Your quite right, my mistake 

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

The various lines of music are conventionally called voices. I am staggered that you seem not to know this

i took what wenger2015 said as a joke... buy hey, what do i know... 

enjoy

ken

It was.....but no offence, was just going for a more light-hearted comment..

Music is not laughing matter. Look up to the edited post!

Of course Bach would have been appalled. Gounod’s arrangement used misses a crucial harmonic shift by removing one bar of the original music!

ATB from George

PS: And this old man sings every note as if his life depends on it! What an amazing achievement.

Hi George,

What IS better. I think this is at the heart of many of your more recent posts. We have been educated through various sources as to what we enjoy and listen for.

A friend popped round to see me yesterday with his dead Uncle's very well catalogued record collection, boy was this guy a major Maria Callas fan! I have been trying to persuade this friend to use his uncle's HiFi system ...or sell it (Tannoy 12" DCs, Thorens 125 MkII & Quad valve amps). While he was here I played him a variety of music of different types, including the Simon & Garfunkel Concert in the Park, a DVD rip with an LPCM soundtrack. Initially I played this back via my Oppo, which rendered it as 5.1, and then via my DAC as stereo. He clearly identified the differences, including the  added information & dynamics via the DAC .....but he preferred the surround sound rendering.

I liked Don's comment above:

Humour is good for the soul, just like music...