Speaker quest for new 300

Most people will probably recommend what they self have. Me 2. 

Try Titans 808. Awesome. Almost brutal  

//Jonas

I fear that you may be listening to speakers that are too demanding and revealing for both the amplifier and the source that you used.  Hence, what you may be hearing is the limitations of the electronics as revealed to greater or lesser extent by the speakers.

Your dealer's demonstration may not show the potential of any of the 3 speakers at all.

If you really want to know what each speaker is capable of, then I would use a better source (NDS perhaps, if you prefer to stream music) and an even better amp than a 282/hicap/250DR.  As you have a 282/Hicap/300DR at home, the Sopra 2 should be very happy - better than with the 250DR.  

I have heard a 300 struggle to inject life into a pair of Fact 12s.  However, the 300DR is a considerably better beast, so you may just about get away with it.  However, I would expect the NDX/XPS to struggle to shine in such august company. 

Alternatively, if the streamer & amp are very similar to what you have at home, then it may also be worth auditioning Sopra 1, Neat XL6, Proac D30R/40R, Kudos S10/S20 and speakers of this calibre to find a more balanced & harmonious system.

Pursuing the route that you appear to be on will certainly lead to a more interesting life (in the Chinese sense), but perhaps not a more satisfying one.

Either way, enjoy the journey!

Best regards, FT

For those prices, have you auditioned the Dynaudio Confidence C2 or C4 Platinum? 

I would recommend not using Tidal as a source. It is clearly not as good quality as a CD or ripped file.

You should try the  Sonus Fabers; fantastically musical. I just bought some Olympicas. Blown me away

thanks guys, for your feedback.

we're dealing with pretty good source and amps here, but yes some speakers will not like them as much.  I am trying to understand the character of the speakers, and all are driven exactly under the same conditions.   I spoke to the B&W reps who asserted me - firmly - that all their speakers would be very happy with 250 and 300 amps.  i have read there is a lot of discussion on that topic on the forum - and my experience was that the 802 were very happy indeed.  I would be going for the 803's anyway if b&w came out on top. magazine 'the ear' tested the fact12's with a 50W class A amplifier.

seems that on the PMC side, the fact-range is different from the 20-range.  the latter is swinging and the former are transparent but restrained.  i might listen to the sopra's again and compare against the small utopia's to understand the focal range better.  it will be good to have the 803's there themselves.

i'll see where i could listen to Titans.my dealer is on the Dynaudio list : I'll inform.  both seem very worthwhile to pursue.

Curious to see which speakers you will end up with. Your dealer has a very diverse range of brands, which is always a good thing. Personally I don't care with PMC, most of the times harsh an bright. B&W is usually at the other end of the spectrum. Too dark and woolly for me.

Furthermore, the lower end range of Sonus Faber is usually fun, but not much more than that. Higher up the ladder it's a different story though. 

Never heard the blades, but I did hear Vivid's. Not cheap, but fabulous speakers. The b1.5 are a bit bass light, but the larger models no not lack anything. Extremely balanced sound.  Would really recommend to take a listen. 

Hi Ben,

Two suggestions spring to mind here, both of which I believe will demand less from your current kit.  One has already been suggested, Kudos Titan T88, it's a big speaker but strangely (I'm reliably informed) not so demanding of power and room placement as some of the others you have tried.  One of the best speakers I have ever heard, I believe it should be on anyone's shortlist at that price point.

Secondly, I have rarely seen them mentioned here, but if your dealer has KEF, try the new Reference 3.  You may be surprised at what they can do, quite beguiling sound when I heard them (and with far less electrics - supernait & CDX2.2).

Jonas Olofsson posted:

Most people will probably recommend what they self have. Me 2. 

 

Yes - it is a natural tendency but as rooms and tastes are so diverse it should as Jonas also says be no more than a recommendation to try. 

Ben00 - based on your comments to date I would also suggest that you try Kudos Titans - but, if you can find some, the T88s.

Good luck and have fun.

Regardless of your dealer's opinion, I suggest you do listen to Sonus Faber's Olympica III. 

You might want to check out Wilson Audio's Sabrina. 

The 802d3 and 803 d3 pretty much have the same character, but you will probably  miss the 802's magnificent bass...

Davidr posted:

I would recommend not using Tidal as a source. It is clearly not as good quality as a CD or ripped file.

You should try the  Sonus Fabers; fantastically musical. I just bought some Olympicas. Blown me away

Bang on, David. I'm picking up on a tendency for some dealers to use Tidal for dems because it's easy and convenient. It does now't for me. It's my experience too, that a played or properly ripped CD sounds much better - and ............... (very importantly), the provenance of the recording/mastering is known.

John.

Ben,

I'm with FT here, particularly with reference to the 802 D3. These are wonderful speakers but, based on my experience with the D2, only start to come into their own when you run them with 300, but they positively sing with a 500. The 803 D3 would also sound much better with the 300 (DR) so it would be worth giving them a try.

Good Luck

Steve 

Foot tapper posted:

I fear that you may be listening to speakers that are too demanding and revealing for both the amplifier and the source that you used.  Hence, what you may be hearing is the limitations of the electronics as revealed to greater or lesser extent by the speakers.

Your dealer's demonstration may not show the potential of any of the 3 speakers at all.

If you really want to know what each speaker is capable of, then I would use a better source (NDS perhaps, if you prefer to stream music) and an even better amp than a 282/hicap/250DR.  As you have a 282/Hicap/300DR at home, the Sopra 2 should be very happy - better than with the 250DR.  

I have heard a 300 struggle to inject life into a pair of Fact 12s.  However, the 300DR is a considerably better beast, so you may just about get away with it.  However, I would expect the NDX/XPS to struggle to shine in such august company. 

Alternatively, if the streamer & amp are very similar to what you have at home, then it may also be worth auditioning Sopra 1, Neat XL6, Proac D30R/40R, Kudos S10/S20 and speakers of this calibre to find a more balanced & harmonious system.

Pursuing the route that you appear to be on will certainly lead to a more interesting life (in the Chinese sense), but perhaps not a more satisfying one.

Either way, enjoy the journey!

Best regards, FT

Good advice from FT here.  I've heard the Sopra2s on a 250DR and they were very good but when a 300DR was plugged in the Sopra's performance leapt up very, very significantly. And the Sopra 2s are probably the most efficient and easy-to-drive of the three you auditioned.

Mike 

If you've grown to like the B&W sound it may be hard for something else to sway you. I also heard PMC against B&W and the two brands are from very different camps in terms of sonic character.

If you want them close to a wall why not consider a second hand pair of SL2 or maybe see if the Ovatars are your thing? I'm sensing a fondness for B&W richness from you though and don't think the older Naim stuff will do it.  Nothing wrong going with more of what you feel comfortable with. I would have stayed with Linn speakers without demoing much else if they had kept the design pholosophy from their Keilidh, Kaber, Keltik heyday.

I may be inclined to Supercap the 282 instead. I have the same source and pre as you and I found a SCDR on the 282 made a great improvement (not everyone feels the same). 

+1 for the Titans with a 300 behind them (should work very well in the room as you've described it - much like my own when i had them)  and seeing as you have the chance you should definitely listen to the Vivid K1's.  If anything will get the hairs on the back of your neck tingling its these beauties.

Hi Guys,

made my way to the dealer's last Friday.  i had an hour of two to spare.  he kept his promise, and a set of black 803 had arrived - not from the other store, but (brand) - new.  he assured they had been playing for a day of two.  the 802's were tucked away in the back of the room.

first impression : gorgeous speakers.  sat down, turned the volume to 9:00 and frankly got lost - with emotions.  they brought forward so much detail and power from the music.  same play list - more of less - and the same electronics.  somewhow, the 803's touched me more than the 802's last time around.  i must agree that the 250DR is more of a match for these speakers.  it was early  in the morning - hadn't heard a stripe of music yet - and because of that, I could not keep it dry.  time to order I thought - but wanted to carry on exploring, perhaps on to prove Mr. Zen wrong - are my ears really conditioned to B&W ?

so in came the blade 2's.  impressive to see in the listening room.  now, this is a 'bass-poor' room - actually the hires TV room of the store.  carpets everywhere - also against the walls.  yes indeed, you guessed right : the 8 woofers of the blades are overwhelming.  incredible bass - nicely controlled as well.  my room at home is not bass poor - I do not stick carpets the wall... stone floor - but with a carpet in the  middle.   the aim is to select two speakers to be auditioned in my room.  anyway : I fear the blades would be too much in my room.  second conclusion : they image very well - the soundstage is wider than with the 803.  but the mid-range is weaker.   that, combined with strong lows, did make the speakers quite unbalanced.  not speakers that are going to make my selection.

time for yet another experiment.  the Vivid's.  this store had the Giya 3's.  their other store has the Giya 4's - that are in the same price range as the 803s.  anyway, here came the 3's...  it took a while to set them up.  in the very beginning - I was wondering what made these speakers special - it took a while before I found out that 'nothing really sticks out' - everything is balanced.  this 4-way speaker is 'harmonious'.  everything is just right : the amount of bass - the midrange shows it all and the highs are just where you expect them to be.  very pleasant to hear.  just as been said above  : 'you cannot fault these speakers'.

my time at the dealer's was up.   I asked him to roll the 803's forward again - just wanted to hear them against the Giya's.  the 803's have less bass (but in my room - it may be just enough) - but still a lot more detail - and more emotion.  the 803's bring out elements in the music that are touching.

what's up for next time ?  the store has Dynaudio - but not the Contour's.  No Kudo's I am afraid...  Sonus Faber Amati - yes, Focal Utopia Scala - yes - - so I guess these 2 will be up against the 803's.   For now, the 803's and the Giya's - but then the 4's - would make it to the final round.

more later - and thanks for all your suggestions.    

Thanks for this report Ben00 - very interesting findings.  

I've an appointment to hear the 803D3s in 2 weeks time at my dealer (they've just arrived there and are 'running in').  I might also listen to the 802D3s at the same time, as there is the possibility of moving the system out of the small music room and into the larger living room (will mean significantly rearranging it though).  Don't have luxury of being able to compare with Vivids, as my dealer isn't a Vivid stockist.

Looking forward to finally hearing the D3s and hopefully allowing me to move on from my limiting 804D2 speakers (that have served me well over many upgrades but are showing their limitations with my current system).

Good luck with your future auditioning - please share your final verdict.

ATB. G.

I' m probably in the minority here, but i'd have thought that if your listening positions are only 3metres from the speaker, then what you should be looking at are standmounts not floor standers. I can't see how you aren't going to get massive room flutter reflexes the moment you turn up the wick with some of the speakers you are trialling. To be honest, irrespective of how it sounds in your dealers, it is how it sounds in your own home that counts. If you are spending 10k+ on speakers, i'd be demanding a home demo...

regards,

Giles

dont make the same mistake i did, had to return pmc 26s as the bottom end was too much for my room, suspended wood floor does not help. amazing speakers but no good in my room. perhaps some smaller floor standers might be worth trying at home first. good choices would be atc scm40 or pmc 23. you might get away with bigger as you have solid floor and larger room. in my room 4m x 4.3m, listening about 3m, not a chance. pmc facts have switches on the back to cut or boost high and low frequencies so these may also be a good option.

Hi Giles,  good suggestion.  my room measures 8m by 5m - but the speakers are fairly centered along the longest wall.  I'll measure the exact distance from each, but when seated in the middle (not always the case), distance may be more 3,5 - 4 m.  i could put the speakers in the corner, increasing distance to about 5m, but then they are nearly 8m apart which is not going to make the soundstage easier.  I currently believe that I need the presence and bottom extension of standmounters.  but i'll test soon.

my floor is solid concrete with natural stone finish.  there is no chance of accoustic coupling with the flow, Halloween man.  indeed : I'll ask the dealer to bring the fact12's along if the bass remains too strong.

yes indeed, once 2 or 3 speakers are chosen in the dealers' room, the final test will take place at home.

Cheers guys,

Ben

Hi guys,

so I went into the dealers' last week for session number 3.

to recap:
* session 1 : 802D3 - Sopra 2 - Fact 12
* session 2 : 803D3 - Blade 2 - Vivid Giya 3
all described above.

* session 3 was scheduled as : 803D3 (the 'reference') - Scala Utopia V2 - Amati Futura

so, was looking forward to the experience.  as I haven't listened to very many speakers in the last couple of years, I have some catching up to do.  Good news : the dealer had the 300DR in the house and so now we were playing an exact copy of the system (although less well arranged).

played a bit louder than the previous 2 times.  unintentionally.  familiar BW sound.  was going very nice.  couldn't recall much of an upgrade vs the 250DR of last time - could have asked to switch amps, but that wasn't the purpose of the visit.  focus.  so here came the Scala's.  physically, a big speakers.  certainly in the width and the depth.  Dealer and I both agreed that the sound is very similar to the BW.  articulate highs, solid lows and good mids.  less articulate / transparent / revealing than the 803's though. came to realise that all the technology in the BW are resulting in an extremely transparent speaker.  so the Scala was very good - I could certainly live with the sound  - but then the price and size is bigger with no added benefit vs the 803's.

in came the gorgeously looking Amati's.  probably the most beautiful speaker - but then everybody is saying that and they are right.  off we went - and boy what a difference vs the other two speakers.  i was immediately very very impressed with the harmonious sound the speakers are bringing forward.  the beautiful lows were exactly matched to the  mids - the music was incredibly 'musical'.  looked at the dealer with an expression 'this is special'...  through the playlist though, the other side of the medal was showing up : a very very obvious coloration.  call it woolly, muffled, whatever... i listened to a bit of Bowie - but this wasn't Bowie.  the highs are  not very articulate either such that guitars or cymbals are not drawing your attention - enough.  mixed feelings in the end.  they reminded me of the Vivid's - but then the Vivid's are not coloured.

so, next week, the speakers are coming to the house.  the 803 is for sure and the Vivid's are as well.  I've asked for the smallest Giya, the model 4 - to compare apples with apples.  i am going to call the dealer before he is coming over - as a third pair could be packed in the van...  it may become the fact 12's - but I am not sure yet.

i'll keep you posted...

I went through a similar exercise a year ago.   I ended up with the Giya G3s.   No regrets - I love the midrange agility of these speakers.   

MadScientist posted:

I went through a similar exercise a year ago.   I ended up with the Giya G3s.   No regrets - I love the midrange agility of these speakers.   

+1 Beguiling! Worked very well in my space and the Titans had to go.  No regrets either.  I love everything these peculiar looking speakers can do  - a great disappearing act.  Possibly the last speaker i will buy.  Unless i end up in a bigger space that could justify the G2's or G1's.

Nagual posted:

MadScientist posted:

I went through a similar exercise a year ago.   I ended up with the Giya G3s.   No regrets - I love the midrange agility of these speakers.   

+1 Beguiling! Worked very well in my space and the Titans had to go.  No regrets either.  I love everything these peculiar looking speakers can do  - a great disappearing act.  Possibly the last speaker i will buy.  Unless i end up in a bigger space that could justify the G2's or G1's.

Nagual, did you have the Kudos Titan T88 but changed to Giya G3s?

Interesting! What would you say are the biggest difference between the two and what was their strengths and weaknesses?

The Titans have got a lot of praise and good comments here on the forum. The titans also seem forgiving regarding placement, are easy to drive (not so demanding on power) and go lower in frequency then the Giya G3.

Have you heared the new Titan 808s...?

Unfortunatly I haven’t heard neither Kudos nor Vivid speakers.

Best regards!

/Marcus

BEN00, thank you for a well written and interesting speaker test. I’m in a similar situation thinking of new speakers.

Of the speakers mentioned here I have heard B&W 803D3 vs 802D3 at a dealer. I have also listened to Focal Sopra No2 two times at a dealer and are thinking about if I should test them at home in my own system. This specific dealer is not so keen on letting people borrow his “expensive speakers”.

I have listened at quite a few brands at dealers and so far I have tested B&W803D3, Audiovector SR6 AA and Marten Bird 2 at home. They are all better than my current Audio Physic Virgo 25 but still has some weaknesses.

Neat and PMC are very hard to demo here in Sweden. Kudos are also a new brand in Sweden but in a few weeks I hope to be able to hear the Titans but I have to travel 500km to get that opportunity. After all positive talk about the Titans I look forward to hear them…

Best regards!

/Marcus

MarcusM posted:

Nagual posted:

MadScientist posted:

I went through a similar exercise a year ago.   I ended up with the Giya G3s.   No regrets - I love the midrange agility of these speakers.   

+1 Beguiling! Worked very well in my space and the Titans had to go.  No regrets either.  I love everything these peculiar looking speakers can do  - a great disappearing act.  Possibly the last speaker i will buy.  Unless i end up in a bigger space that could justify the G2's or G1's.

Nagual, did you have the Kudos Titan T88 but changed to Giya G3s?

Interesting! What would you say are the biggest difference between the two and what was their strengths and weaknesses?

The Titans have got a lot of praise and good comments here on the forum. The titans also seem forgiving regarding placement, are easy to drive (not so demanding on power) and go lower in frequency then the Giya G3.

Have you heared the new Titan 808s...?

Unfortunatly I haven’t heard neither Kudos nor Vivid speakers.

Best regards!

/Marcus

Hi Marcus

i bought the Titan T88's to replace the Harbeth monitor 30's in my main system. A fuller range and deep controlled bass quite close to the rear wall were the requirements. They delivered in spades and I was very happy with them for 15 months but I had demoed Vivid K1's at the same  time and was mightily impressed though they were pushing the budget at the time. 

I would recommend the Titans to anyone. They are easily placed and handle everything you can throw at them though I have to admit there was always something  in their presentation that niggled at me. Maybe niggled is too strong  word. They were not as holographic maybe as the harbeths I had  become very accustomed to. Something almost set back in their soundstage. I'm running out of words to describe it so let's move on to why I the Vivids just rock my world. 

Firstly, the budget expanded, second, G3's were offered to me at a special price so demanded a demo. Here was something even more seductive than the K1's. The same mesmerising detail that sucked me into each note. A midrange clarity that shuts the eyes and makes me think - oh yeah someone's playing a guitar just over there and they're blydi good at it!  

The balance of the speakers is about the best I've heard. The bass is all there but never dominant. Maybe they weren't going as low as the Titans but they just sound so RIGHT! Cohesive. 

I had recently gone from a 252 to 552 and that was producing some strange effects on the Titans in my room. Felt like there was a lot more bass info coming through and I had gained detail but lost balance. The Vivids dispelled the illusion immediately but were revealing my speaker cables to be bright.  A few weeks later I got some super lumina cables home for a demo and haven't stopped grinning since. My only regret was not having the cables before I said goodbye to the Titans as I think this could have rebalanced them but would I give up the improved clarity and naturalness  of the Vivids and their 3 dimensional presentation - no! 

I would like to hear the new Titans and I will get my 300 DR'd  and that's going to give me plenty more thrills from an already deeply satisfying setup.  I just hope to god my dealer doesn't lend me a 500 while mine is at Salisbury but he's my Pusherman so who knows ��