Speaker quest for new 300

Nagual posted:

Hi Marcus

i bought the Titan T88's to replace the Harbeth monitor 30's in my main system. A fuller range and deep controlled bass quite close to the rear wall were the requirements. They delivered in spades and I was very happy with them for 15 months but I had demoed Vivid K1's at the same  time and was mightily impressed though they were pushing the budget at the time. 

I would recommend the Titans to anyone. They are easily placed and handle everything you can throw at them though I have to admit there was always something  in their presentation that niggled at me. Maybe niggled is too strong  word. They were not as holographic maybe as the harbeths I had  become very accustomed to. Something almost set back in their soundstage. I'm running out of words to describe it so let's move on to why I the Vivids just rock my world. 

Firstly, the budget expanded, second, G3's were offered to me at a special price so demanded a demo. Here was something even more seductive than the K1's. The same mesmerising detail that sucked me into each note. A midrange clarity that shuts the eyes and makes me think - oh yeah someone's playing a guitar just over there and they're blydi good at it!  

The balance of the speakers is about the best I've heard. The bass is all there but never dominant. Maybe they weren't going as low as the Titans but they just sound so RIGHT! Cohesive. 

I had recently gone from a 252 to 552 and that was producing some strange effects on the Titans in my room. Felt like there was a lot more bass info coming through and I had gained detail but lost balance. The Vivids dispelled the illusion immediately but were revealing my speaker cables to be bright.  A few weeks later I got some super lumina cables home for a demo and haven't stopped grinning since. My only regret was not having the cables before I said goodbye to the Titans as I think this could have rebalanced them but would I give up the improved clarity and naturalness  of the Vivids and their 3 dimensional presentation - no! 

I would like to hear the new Titans and I will get my 300 DR'd  and that's going to give me plenty more thrills from an already deeply satisfying setup.  I just hope to god my dealer doesn't lend me a 500 while mine is at Salisbury but he's my Pusherman so who knows ��

 

Hi Nagual!

Thank you for a good and detailed answer!

I think that the Vivid speakers looks good but my wife did not like them at all when I showed her a picture. They are unfortunately not welcome in our living room so I have not tried to arrange a demo to hear them. I guess that their design make you love or hate them and nothing in between…

Since you have changed both to better speakers and also changed preamp from NAC252 to NAC552, which did you think were most beneficial? Which change gave you the bigger gain?

I have a NAC252 and are wondering if I will create a “mullet” if buying Kudos Titan 808, B&W802D3 or similar? Will I feel that the NAC252 is the weak link and that I also need to buy a NAC552 if I change to a speaker that is “too good” for the rest of my system...?

Off course very hard questions to answer and should be answered in a demo, preferably at home. Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to arrange such a demo here in Sweden. Only one store in the whole country have a NAC552 demo unit and the same store don’t have NAC252. There is no easy way to compare NAC252 vs NAC552.

I have tried a few different speakers in my system and have a rather good understanding which magnitude of improvement better speakers could give but have never even heard the NAC552.

I would appreciate to hear your view if you preferred better speakers or a better preamp! If forced would you give up your Vivid speakers or your NAC552?

Best regards!

Marcus

Hi Marcus 

that really is a tough question. The 252/300 was the heart of my system for 5 years I think. A fabulous refind rig but I knew it was pushing out more music that my Harbeths could display and along came the Titans. I have to say moving from 282-252 was rewarding but I felt I had traded off some excitement for refinement. The 552 was a pipe dream of mine years back but gradually became a possibility. I think it will go down as my most thrilling Hifi purchase ever. As much as I adore the Vivids I feel the 552 is what feeds the boogie from the source hence this would be my very tough choice 552 over the Vivids. In some ways I wish I had skipped the 252 stage but I think that's an injustice. I kept mine for the 2nd system as going back to the 112 was just deflating. 

The look of the Vivids is a deciding factor for many it seems. Personally I love my purple smurfs and front on they don't have a big presence. 802's were never going to be pleasing on the eye for me in my home environment and I wasn't keen on their presentation  so they never made it passed the dealer demo. Luckily the Hifi obsession was here  before the wife so that's her cross to bear now �� But I don't  think she minds them much just doesn't want to be dragged to any more demos! 

Hi Marcus,

 if I will create a “mullet” if buying Kudos Titan 808, B&W802D3 or similar? - No mullet here mate. You have a great source and fine amps. I believe top flight speakers will reward you.

I have a reverse mullet now, but by accident. I began the Naim ladder with CDX2-282-Hicap-300-B&W803s. My then dealer, recommended better speakers even back in 2004. Initially I had no upgrade itch or experience. I then targeted one below the top as a stopping point. This led to XPS2, then 555ps for the CDP. The CDX became a CDS3. Then the 282 went in favour of a 252-Scap.  Which I thought was it and enjoyed out of the box compared to the 282. The TT was upgraded twice and the stage went up to Superline. Then I acquired a S/H 552 and few months later the "final" piece, a 500. In the meantime the Statement came out so having achieved the old top rung, I did end up with one below the top again. I had now decided that upgrades should be only worthwhile if they brought pangs of guilt and pain. The point here is that I should have upgraded the speakers much sooner as the black boxes would have performed better. The second point being that, if you can, avoid stepping stones along the way and hit your target next time if possible.

Only one store in the whole country have a NAC552 demo unit and the same store don’t have NAC252. There is no easy way to compare NAC252 vs NAC552. - Take your 252 to the store to compare the two!

Yes the 552 is a real "wow" moment. As your 252 will benefit from the top speakers, more so will a 552. If you do go 552 eventually, you will already have the speaker needed to let the 552 sing. Right now, I wish I had bought even the 803 "D", not the little old "S". So I am now following every speaker thread with interest. I do enjoy the B&W sound and would love to hear the Scala Utopia V2's. I live in Greece and share your pain of few dealers, and even less stock. As I move house a lot, being an Expat, home demos are meaningless for me. The room/house will change again probably before the speakers!

Good luck and tell us all what you decided.

Dave

Nagual posted:

Hi Marcus 

that really is a tough question. The 252/300 was the heart of my system for 5 years I think. A fabulous refind rig but I knew it was pushing out more music that my Harbeths could display and along came the Titans. I have to say moving from 282-252 was rewarding but I felt I had traded off some excitement for refinement. The 552 was a pipe dream of mine years back but gradually became a possibility. I think it will go down as my most thrilling Hifi purchase ever. As much as I adore the Vivids I feel the 552 is what feeds the boogie from the source hence this would be my very tough choice 552 over the Vivids. In some ways I wish I had skipped the 252 stage but I think that's an injustice. I kept mine for the 2nd system as going back to the 112 was just deflating. 

The look of the Vivids is a deciding factor for many it seems. Personally I love my purple smurfs and front on they don't have a big presence. 802's were never going to be pleasing on the eye for me in my home environment and I wasn't keen on their presentation  so they never made it passed the dealer demo. Luckily the Hifi obsession was here  before the wife so that's her cross to bear now �� But I don't  think she minds them much just doesn't want to be dragged to any more demos! 

Thank you for trying to answer my very difficult question, Nagaul!

I guess that your conclusion is very similar to what I have read in other “treads”. Better speakers will give you a better sound but a NAC552 is magical…

I agree with you that the step from NAC282 to NAC252 is rewarding. I don’t feel there is a tradeoff. To me the NAC252 is clearly better than NAC282. The NAC252 render the music in a much more musical way and compared to the NAC252 the NAC282 is a bit “mechanical” and “grainy”. I have always a bit of a problem to understand that some people prefer the NAC282 to the NAC252. I’m always thinking that something else must have been wrong in their system but I guess that we just listen for different things and have different taste…

/Marcus

Bodger posted:

Hi Marcus,

 if I will create a “mullet” if buying Kudos Titan 808, B&W802D3 or similar? - No mullet here mate. You have a great source and fine amps. I believe top flight speakers will reward you.

I have a reverse mullet now, but by accident. I began the Naim ladder with CDX2-282-Hicap-300-B&W803s. My then dealer, recommended better speakers even back in 2004. Initially I had no upgrade itch or experience. I then targeted one below the top as a stopping point. This led to XPS2, then 555ps for the CDP. The CDX became a CDS3. Then the 282 went in favour of a 252-Scap.  Which I thought was it and enjoyed out of the box compared to the 282. The TT was upgraded twice and the stage went up to Superline. Then I acquired a S/H 552 and few months later the "final" piece, a 500. In the meantime the Statement came out so having achieved the old top rung, I did end up with one below the top again. I had now decided that upgrades should be only worthwhile if they brought pangs of guilt and pain. The point here is that I should have upgraded the speakers much sooner as the black boxes would have performed better. The second point being that, if you can, avoid stepping stones along the way and hit your target next time if possible.

Only one store in the whole country have a NAC552 demo unit and the same store don’t have NAC252. There is no easy way to compare NAC252 vs NAC552. - Take your 252 to the store to compare the two!

Yes the 552 is a real "wow" moment. As your 252 will benefit from the top speakers, more so will a 552. If you do go 552 eventually, you will already have the speaker needed to let the 552 sing. Right now, I wish I had bought even the 803 "D", not the little old "S". So I am now following every speaker thread with interest. I do enjoy the B&W sound and would love to hear the Scala Utopia V2's. I live in Greece and share your pain of few dealers, and even less stock. As I move house a lot, being an Expat, home demos are meaningless for me. The room/house will change again probably before the speakers!

Good luck and tell us all what you decided.

Dave

 

Hi Dave and thank you for your answer!

You have a very nice system but would clearly benefit from better speakers, as you state yourself…

I think my own system have a good balance without any clear weak links. The Super Lumina cables also gave a good improvement and balance to my system. I guess that it’s a “no brainer” to upgrade my NAP300 to DR-status but after that my wish is to not improve my electronics any further (at least for now).

After being to a few hifi demo days I had a feeling that naim-system is very good compared to others but that my speakers could be bettered and that they was lacking some attributes. I then started to look at some potential speakers that would be a good match to Naim and that would clearly better my current Audio Physic Virgo 25.

At hifi demos at different dealers it’s always hard to draw a conclusion. Most dealers don’t have Naim and the ones that carry Naim only have Naim-speakers and one or two other brands. This means that I have to listen to different speakers with different electronics in different rooms every time and it’s very hard to know what is sounding good or not.

I actually visited a hifi dealer today that had a demo day. They were playing on two different systems. One with Dynaudio Confidence C4 and Mark Levinson and the other one with Sonus Faber Lilium and Gryphon. They were both very expensive systems but the one with the Dynaudio speakers were clearly better to my ears. The Dynaudio system was very impressive and the system with the very expensive Sonus Faber Lilium was a big disappointment. Does that make the Sonus Faber Lilium a bad speaker? Probably not. It just shows how important the room, system matching and other stuff is…

I hope that you are right that better speakers would be very rewarding in my system! I also hope that such a system will be satisfying over time and not making me want to get a NAC552 ever… ;-)

Some of the speakers that I have listening to so far is Naim Ovator S-400 and S-600, Audiovector SR3AA, SR6AA, Raidho D1 and X3, Focal Sopra No2 and Utopia V2, B&W 803D3 and 802D3, Marten Design Django XL, Getz 2 and Bird 2, Elac and some more brands that I don’t remember right now.

Out of these I haven’t found a perfect match yet. I’m hoping to get really impressed by the Kudos Titans. If not I’m starting to run out of options…

Yes, listen to Utopia V2 and B&Ws new 800-series if you have the chance. They are both very good speakers but especially the Focals (Utopia and Sopra) are quite sensitive to the quality of the recording. With poorly recorded or poorly produced music the Focals get “hard” and “analytical” to my ears and I experience listening fatigue quite fast. I did not listen to the Focals with Naim electronics but from what I heard I would go for the 802D3 over the Focals…

/Marcus

Marcus i  think the Titans will give you the wow factor you are looking for and a DR of the 300 really could be the icing on the cake. I really enjoyed mine in the 252/300 setup.  I tested the 802D2's around the same time and thought the Titan more impressive and less visually domineering but its all a case of personal preference Keep us posted

the story has to come to conclusion.  last thursday/friday the neighbours must have wondered why this van with 'high end audio' logos was driving up and down the street all the time. 

First came in the Sopra 2's into my listening room.  since the decoration is quite lean, the dealer was concerned for reflections when he came in the first time but then after the whole exercise was finished, he came to the conclusion that there are no sonic concerns in my room today.  the dimensions must be just right and the current furnishings result in a very clean sound.  so the Sopra 2's turned out to be very good speakers.  i loved them a lot more than in the (poor) room in Bristol sound show.  they are quite revealing and the voices were really nice.  bass levels controlled.  i told the dealer that i could certainly live with these speakers.

in came the 803D3's.  music is a relative thing.  good thing hapiness is as well.  moving the 803's is a bit like the DR upgrade.  the black is more black, the white more white.  the dynamic character is very obvious.  combined with more analytic / revealing approach to music, it is quite a different speaker to the Sopra's.  the good thing about the 803 is that all this information is pulling you more into the soundstage.  voices are more realistic - the speakers are disappearing.

in came the Vivid Giya G4.  they are small compared to the previous speakers.  why the G4 ?  they are pricey - at the level of 802D3's.  i went to a great event at my dealers' last weekend where the G1, G3 and G4 were demoed - Laurence Dickie presented his technology and he and I chatted for a long time over a glass of wine.  great guy and the company is doing quite well.  so, i was very open and curious to the experience at home.  but I am afraid, it became quite obvious after 15 seconds that the G4 would not tip the 803's - not even close.  the sound flattened out - the sparks were gone and we got a coherent picture but one that was not exciting as with the previous 2 speakers.  they were ranked in 3rd place - I am sure Laurence would not be happy with this statement - but Vivid does have a bit of an issue on the price/quality side.  all this to my ears of course.

so there we were at 6 PM with the 803's on and going through some great music from the NAS.  the high-res format rendering was stunning.  the dealer got excited.  then came the question that would determine the remainder of the evening : would the 802 fit here in my room ?  the answer was 'no problem'.  so the van was driving up and down the street again and one hour later the big brothers were in place.  the remainder of the evening and the next day was devoted to two things : 803 or 802 ? and : which colour ?

so declare me a B&W adept from now on.  i heard the Titan's in Bristol and found them very 'bassy'.  different environment of course, and after this extensive effort it is absolutely vital to demo at home.  so different - so much better.  the only justifiable way to purchase this kind of kit.  it is quite a choice between 803 and 802.  after many hours of listening to both, i found them to be quite different speakers.  they both have their advantages.  it is not a choice of 'upgrading' - but more of 'priorities'.  in essence : the 803 are top in detail and analysis.  the 802's are top in soundstage.  the cut-offs for the midrange must be different and adjusted to size of the drive units.  low midrange is much more present in the 802's.  this became very evident in listening to Rachel Podger where the viola's were no longer dominated by Rachel's violin in the 802 presentation.  with the 803, you would (nearly) say that only Rachel was on stage with her violin. so the 802 adds more 'warmth' as a result - also because the lows are more present as well of course. so, a more complete image - but then demanding a lot more of the electronics, where i have some way to go.  i know it is going to be a lovely way though...  determining the colour was not that easy : the matt finish of the white speakers (which were the demo ones) is very attractive.  I ('we' with the wive) decided on the black ones though.  painful departure last night after a full day alone with the 803 and 802 in the music room...  but today with the good old 804's back on, I am still very much enjoying my music.  at the end of the day, music is key.

i'll start up another thread soon on bass control - but thanks to everyone for walking this journey with me.

Many thanks for the detailed feedback Ben - very interesting to hear your feedback on these speakers!

Two weeks ago, I auditioned the 802D3 and 803D3 using my system set-up (I've been looking to upgrade from my 804D2 for some time now).  I loved both sets of speakers (I spent from 11 in the morning to 5:30pm listening to a whole range of different music, and in the end I've ordered the 803D3 in rosenut - will be arriving at the start of April.  Also coincides with my 500 being off at Salisbury at the moment on its 'DR Holiday' (I have a 200 'loaner' at present) - the demo session was with the 500 though. 

Your detailed description of both 802D3 and 803D3 resonate with me  I felt that the 803D3 maybe gave 80+% of the 802D3 (the 802D3 bass extension is naturally greater, but not by as much as folks would think), however I simply haven't the space (height) for the larger 802D3.  In the event the difference between either and my current 804D2 is massive - it's almost as if that's been a filter 'holding back' the music in my system.

Sounds like you have much fun ahead with your new speakers, and I'm also looking forward  to April with my 803D3 and DR'ed 500.  (I'll report back (separately) on my journey once the system has been upgraded).

ATB.  George.

Hi George,  Congrats on purchasing the 803's !

The 803's are better than the 802's in clarity.  their sound is very compelling from an high-end-audio point of view.  enormous separation.  super vocals.  very dynamic as well.  I found that you have to trade some of this in when going for the 802's.  Their warmth brings more fuziness into the picture.  I found it difficult to choose in the end - knowing that both models suit my room.  I preferred the proportions of the 803's over the 802's as well - although they are not that different.  The black colour may also make them appear slimmer - and the shiny character will do the same.  The 803 demo's were in black already.  

i listen to a lot of different music as well - going from baroque to a lot of Indie over a bit of Jazz.  with these great new 800 series, all that is going to be so much fun.

please keep me posted on your initial experiences.  803-500 must be stellar.  ATB.

I think the more accurate description is that with your amp the 803's are better than the 802's in clarity. The 802's need a much more powerful amp than the 300DR to really show the capabilities of the speaker. A more accurate statement would be that the 802's were showing the limitations of your amp more clearly than the 803's.

The 802D3 that I listened to did not sound "fuzzy" in any way, but I was listening to them through a much more powerful amp.

Thanks Ben - yes, I'll write up the new speakers when they arrive.

With the DR of the 500 and the recent SuperLumina loom addition, it'll be a triple upgrade!

Having said that, the 200 'loaner' through my 804D2 is making a fair go of things, and it's certainly not 'slumming it'.

Any idea when your speakers will be delivered yet?

ATB.  George.

I'll wait much too long, George.  I'll find out on Monday once B&W has been called...

ATB.