Ethernet cables

Black, white, grey, beige, red, green, blue, yellow, pink, purple... round, flat. Numerous brands, grades of cable, grades of plug. The biggest difficulty is choice.

And CPC is but one supplier in the UK...

audio1946 posted:

The only positive factor of between these cables for different manufactures is  the quality of the cable used quality of plugs and finally the terminating method .cheap audio questt cables seem to fit the bill. Fit at switch and forget it.

To a point.. The Cat cable specifications such as Cat 6 are quite open, and allow a lot of variation for different situations. Such variables include attenuation, capacitance, wire gauge, number of strands per cable, type of insulation and type of shielding. Cat 6 allows for
F/UTP , FTP, S/FTP, U/FTP, U/UTP and probably other possibilities.

Now all these variables can be chosen to suit specific environmental requirements in the data world..  However in our niche world of audiophile hifi, we discover that these transmission lines can effect EMI and  RFI in connected audio equipment. These side effects can produce audible side effects... essentially the Ethernet lead becomes a type tuneable tone control or RF noise control... to my mind this not a million miles away from a tuneable cable stub in the world of RF engineering. Remember Ethernet cables conduct  analogue RF modulated currents at the end of the day.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike, are your sure :-)

Yes Simon, quite sure ....... & indeed as you rightly point out the UK is awash with ethernet suppliers.

Mr Paws asked me specifically for Blue Jeans Cables,  these are made in-house in their Seattle shop, made from Belden cable & Sentinel brand RJ-45 connectors - both made in USA.  Each cable is tested for TIA conformity & the resultant test data sheet shipped with the assembled patch cord;  proof that the Cat-6 you buy does perform to that spec.,  unlike many patch cords where the cable performs, but it fails with the RJ-45's attached.   It needs to be noted that Blue Jeans is not an audiophile/boutique priced cable;  their Cat-6 is $10.75 (£7.50) for 6 foot & the same length of Cat-6A is $17.50.    

Mr Paws posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

There are many suppliers of Cat N cable in UK. Try a company called CPC (CPC Farnell) - you should find enough choice to keep you occupied for a few hours trying to tell what the difference is...

I'm only interested in the quality of the cable not whether it sounds a bit "different" . I suppose the colour will come into it for me as I don't like white so only black will do. :-/

I meant time trying to tell what the difference in specification is in the catalogue, before deciding which ones to order!

Mike - in the hundreds of deployments I have been involved with over the years - I have never come across Blue Jeans Cables... perhaps its more a consumer brand - but a nice sales touch of providing a test certificate.

Patch cables usually come pre terminated - and only very rarely do I come across a cable failure- so was a bit uncertain of your comment about failing when the cable is terminated. Clearly structured wiring requires cable to be terminated at installation and we use a reliable cable tester for that. However in my experience a sub optimal cable will produce bad frames - and managed devices will measure this. Unless we are talking long cable runs I very rarely see a single bad frame on a port - and this is despite billions of frames passing through over a period of time... but it does happen occasionally.

I guess the other consideration is that the Cat specification for a cable according to ANSI/TIA/EIA 568 -B includes the 'connecting hardware' - that is the plug. A cable that is not terminated does not conform to this standard.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike - in the hundreds of deployments I have been involved with over the years - I have never come across Blue Jeans Cables... perhaps its more a consumer brand - but a nice sales touch of providing a test certificate.

- so was a bit uncertain of your comment about failing when the cable is terminated. 

Yes Simon, Blue Jeans is without doubt a consumer brand,  much like Audioquest, Monster & Chord.  They do however appear to be very open & honest & do not apply liberal doses of expensive snake oil lubrication.

I was referring to failing a category compliance test.  There are a numbers of www reports where Cat7 patch cords fail to meet Cat6 or Cat6 failing to meet Cat5e. They can be found in a section on Blue Jeans www were the tested patch cords are not named,  plus a well known very expensive named Cat7 cord that only marginally made it to Cat6a in an ARS publication,  plus some testing done by Meicord.  It seems that whilst the cable may comply to a category (class) the problem arises once the RJ45's are installed it does not.  Cat7 cable made into a patch cord with a pair of RJ45 (which is Cat6) maybe but not always manage the NEXT & RL for the bandwidth to comply to Cats6.

OK it can be said a Cat7 only complying to Cat6 is still well able to work with Base100T,  but when someones paid hundreds or even £1000+ for Cat7 when it isn't  .......  ??? 

Mike-B posted:

OK it can be said a Cat7 only complying to Cat6 is still well able to work with Base100T,  but when someones paid hundreds or even £1000+ for Cat7 when it isn't  .......  ??? 

I suspect most paying for boutique Ethernet cables would be happy if their Hi-Fi sounded 'better' and would not be concerned about whether the cable meets the specific CAT spec or not. 

James

Mike thanks - when you read EIA 568 - B you see the Cat 5e and Cat 6 (no other Cat types appear officially recognised by the standard - ( or at least my copy of it) are only defined when terminated. Therefore a cable on its own cant comply to the 5e or 6 specification - but it can when it has connectors applied.

To your last point - I think that is simply a divergence between consumer productisation and product marketing and actual formal engineering standards and requirements. I guess if some one is willing to pay for a premium product of some description - the fact it may not actually be officially supported/recognized or required from a technical or engineering perspective becomes perhaps irrelevant. Perhaps it more - not what it does and how it does it - but more what it looks like and what it is sold as? Does this not occur a lot with audiophile equipment - and Ethernet cables is the next category that this applies to? - and yes to me this encroaches into Snake Oil territory.

Simon

Hi Simon,   I'm aware EIA 568-B (or 568-A) is the wire & RJ45 pin configuration,  however I'm not so sure you are right about the cable without termination not able to comply;  bulk cable reels of ethernet have data sheets showing the Cat (Class) 

And (James N) ,  I agree,  its irrelevant especially when it "sounds better",  I alluded to that in the last lines of my post.  Problem is us gullible audiophools are sucked in by promises of audio navara with high gloss price tags for Cats with big numbers - noting Chord have chosen to not use ethernet & Cat numbers & now call their cables "streaming cables",  maybe wise considering they are not ethernet anyway & the ASA -  As I've said before I personalty don't care how my data streams get delivered, cat whatever, wet string or even a soggy moggy will do if it works  

Mike - I know its confusing - but the T568A and T568B wiring pin out assignments are separate, albeit referenced, from the  ANSI/ TIA/EIA 568.B.X cabling standards (Categories). 568.B.2 defines the 'Connecting Hardware' specifications for Cat 5e and Cat 6 (and Cat 3 ) compliance. 568.B.3 addresses Fibre cables.

OK  I understand that,  but keeping it simple for other readers ......  the cable construction, such as its pair twist rates, conductor type/size & with or without screening,  all determine the category (class) that the cable conforms to.  The RJ45 is a compromise, its designed for telephone service, not ethernet,  & with the higher Cat specifications the wire to pin routing geometry becomes critical so much so that it can cause a patch cord (assembly) to perform at a lower category than the cable alone.

Mike, the Ethernet 8P8C RJ45 was specifically designated for use with 110 ohm balanced Ethernet twisted pairs. The alternative specification RJ45S was used historically for ccertain telephony systems. They have similar appearances. I am advised the two are different however.

Prior to the development of the RJ45 Ethernet connector Ethernet was (in my experience) fibre or 75 ohm coax.

Simon

Mike-B posted:

Hi Simon,   I'm aware EIA 568-B (or 568-A) is the wire & RJ45 pin configuration,  however I'm not so sure you are right about the cable without termination not able to comply;  bulk cable reels of ethernet have data sheets showing the Cat (Class) 

And (James N) ,  I agree,  its irrelevant especially when it "sounds better",  I alluded to that in the last lines of my post.  Problem is us gullible audiophools are sucked in by promises of audio navara with high gloss price tags for Cats with big numbers - noting Chord have chosen to not use ethernet & Cat numbers & now call their cables "streaming cables",  maybe wise considering they are not ethernet anyway & the ASA -  As I've said before I personally don't care how my data streams get delivered, cat whatever, wet string or even a soggy moggy will do if it works  

I hear what you say Mike, but isn't it nice when all your bits get delivered in the right order and without dropping any on the carpet or anywhere else?  

For my own part (and with a new carpet to worry about), I thought it would be a good idea to invest on those lovely light blue and white Chord wires (and also to keep the moggy away from them - you know how they love to chew stuff like that).

I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'm sure more bits get delivered now than when I had the wet string and two cans connected.

rjstaines posted:

- you know how they love to chew stuff like that). 

  .......  ....... 

A friend of mine has a just needed to invest in a new set of speaker cables together with some skirting mounted cable conduit;   his new dog seems to have taken up a dislike for his Linn K20 cable  

..........  the headline reads  "K9 Kills K20"

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:   They have similar appearances. I am advised the two are different however. 

RJ45 was introduced first.  The RJ45-S has an extra tab that prevents it being used with the other connector. 

However while it has been a good connector for all sorts of applications including ethernet, my point in these posts is that its at its design limit with Cat6A & probably beyond it with Cat7

Mike, ok you prompted to refer to my  professional engineering texts. The RJ45 modular connection used for 8P8C Ethernet connections is standardised as IEC 60603-7-7

http://www.encnn.com/design-tr...2060603-7-7-2006.pdf

This standard defines the parameters to be used as the RJ45 connector and plug  that forms an integral part of the current Cat 5e and Cat 6 specifications as defined by ANSI/ TIA/EIA 568.B.2

I note that Cat 6A and Cat 7 are not formally agreed standards yet for Ethernet use by the ANSI/TIA/EIA - at least to my notes and copy versions of the standards.

Cat 6 with its RJ45 connector is fine for upto 10 Gbps. Cat 5e with its RJ45 connector is fine upto 1 Gbps.

So yes the RJ45 8P8C connector has no limitation for current standardised and adopted Ethernet technology where copper is used that I am aware - but if you were wanting to use the cables with different connectors for other uses and technologies other than existing Ethernet then yes RJ45 might not be best - and fibre or wave guides might be more appropriate. 

Significantly higher bandwidths can be provided over copper - even a single twisted pair over short distances but very different technology is used.

I personally expect higher bandwidths in the future will however use fibre rather than copper constructions because its cheaper and more reliable in terms EMI at higher frequencies. Recent engineering conferences I am aware of have perhaps suggested this trend. New technology and techniques has very much simplified and reduced the costs of fibre connections from previous years.

Simon

I'm obliged sir & note that  IEC 60603-7-7 shows 8 way connectors for data transmission "frequencies up to 600 MHz" - which is Cat-7.   ........    I'm still left with questions over the cable geometry management to the pin connections that seems to be the weak link in maintaining advertised patch cord compliance.   

My understanding is that Category 6A is recognized by TIA/EIA,  (Cat-7 is not TIA recognised)  but ISO/IEC-11801 does recognise Cat-7. ........ all a bit confusing  ..........  

Mike - thanks I must admit I also 'thought' Cat 6A was now recognized by the TIA/EIA/ANSI but I don't have a standard that states that - my versions might be a little out of date. If you have a link to a new version 568-B I would be obliged... they seem to put newer Cat standards as addendums. The 6A recognition however might have come from an errant wiki etc - there appears to be a lot of misinformation regarding these areas on the web

Simon

I'm finding this increasingly bemusing, if interesting on a technical level. When my music was on a NAS I used bog-standard cheapo Cat5e cable from CPC costing something under a fiver. Likewise to upload files onto the NAS originally. And later to transfer files from NAS to Mac Mini. Then ran from MM to streamer via two such cables with a switch between. Whilst i did not try any A-B comparisons, I did not get the impression that there was any difference whatsoever in the sound output produced by the streamer. I then changed to using MM as a streamer, with no ethernet cables in use while playing. Comparing that to running my old NAS, now 3 (cheapo) cables and 2 switches removed from the streamer, sounds no different from running direct from MM hard disc. My conclusion is that you have to be unlucky to get an ethernet cable that adversely affects sound quality.

IB - This discussion sub-thread is not about sound quality,  its the differences between USA & ISO standards.

I agree audio ethernet is perfectly OK with Cat5e, but I will add I've heard differences between some cables.

Mike, thanks, yes I see they are at version 568-D now, but it's almost $1000 to purchase the new standard set, so I'll make a visit to the work tech library to see if I can access a copy there.

Simon

Melco ethernet cables :  http://melco-audio.com/products.html#c1ae

Any thoughts on these, £60 for 0.5m?

Remember the one true creed:  bits are bits.  I'd spend cash on my system almost anywhere else than here.

Dan43 posted:

Melco ethernet cables :  http://melco-audio.com/products.html#c1ae

Any thoughts on these, £60 for 0.5m?

That sounds ridiculous.. High quality low noise cable seemingly aimed at the multimedia industry and for constructing Cat 6 patch leads / infrastructure wiring is about £1.50 per metre from industrial cable stockists.

i thought one of the advantages of the Melco was you didn't need to use boutique cables, as the common mode noise had been removed by the Melco filter?