Super Lumina Speaker Cable. More HiFi Less Music?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Well, there you have it - as i said, maybe that's why I dont recognise PRaT, and instead seek realism, making my demands on a system, especially speakers perhaps, somewhat different from many on this forum.

What an odd comment - very little music has no place for rhythm and timing - Feldman perhaps. Perhaps a little snobbery is coming into play? I love Bach, esoteric baroque vocal works, left field jazz, but Donna Summer? Her music is classic - to dismiss it with 'well, there we have it' with a seeming superior wave of the hand is rather offensive. It's like me saying 'prog is crap'. I cannot abide prog, but I know others like it, and I recognise the musicianship and craft involved, so would never dismiss it in a way you seem happy to do. 

And that's a strange misinterpretation of what I said! I didnt in any way whatsoever put Donna Summer down, just said I dont like that song, or that style of music.

The "there you have it" simply referred to the fact thatthere is a difference in musical taste going on. no more, no less. If you consider that to be snobbish, then so be it, but perhaps it was due to a simple misinterpretation of what I meant.

And of course music has rhythm, and pace, and timing - but to me it must all be in  balance, and not  in some way emphasise those aspects at the expense of evenness of frequency response (including full extremities), minimal distortion etc. 

Regarding musical taste, on the vast majority of occasions (though I'm not suggesting all), when PRaT is mentioned the music being referred to is not to my taste.

Steve J posted:

MDS posted:

Allo, new avatar! Have you just bought one of the last Defenders Steve?

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Congrats Steve, sounds like interesting times ahead

"I always struggle with the discussion of hifi vs emotional engagement: to me, good music is emotionally engaging almost regardless of what it is played on, just gets better the more it sounds like the band/orchestra/singer being there. But then I never did get the PRaT thing, which in part i put down to my taste in music"

I don't get the PRaT thing.  Timing is in the music.  For me, anything that is emphasising timing by reducing decay is tinkering with the recording.  I'd prefer it as it comes off the master tape. I started a thread about this thing last year 'Do we need PRaT' and every comment missed the point. I've never come out of the Barbican Hall and thought  "Great PRaT, I'll come again". I think I'd better grab a hard hat now, I think.

Dustysox posted:

Gents, there is only one way to solve this debate and that is to refer to our learned friend 911gt3r the founder of the original loom!!! I've heard he may come out of the retirement home!!!!!!!

Dusty ducks for cover.....again!

Thanks Dusty - I very much look forward to the end of 911's "sabbatical"!

ATB.

Hook

I love these "religious" discussions as people try to justify their choice in hifi. Music has to sound like music with no artificial emphasis on tone or frequency etc. If a system gets out the way and lets music through with minimal changes then surely that's best. It's the buyer's choice wrt the best approach. 

Graham Russell posted:

I love these "religious" discussions as people try to justify their choice in hifi. Music has to sound like music with no artificial emphasis on tone or frequency etc. If a system gets out the way and lets music through with minimal changes then surely that's best. It's the buyer's choice wrt the best approach. 

Wholeheartedly agree - no artificial emphasis (or de-emphasis) of anything: tone, frequency, rhythm, timing, etc. Just as close to,the original recording as possible ( and of course the better the original recording quality, the better it can sound!).

And re musical,taste, each to their own.

Steve J posted:

MDS posted:

Allo, new avatar! Have you just bought one of the last Defenders Steve?

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Totally out of topic but why a Defender, Steve? 

I never tried the speaker cable owing to the length of the plugs and my reluctance to move my NBLs but the DIN-DIN from CDX2/555ps to 282 lost the boogie factor. I put this down to it resting on the carpet  where a Hiline hangs free, DB suggested looping it which I did and a little later I also looped the Canon-DIN to the 250 but still no boogie. A packing bobble was also tried  in place of the loops but still no boogie. On reverting to the hiline with 250 lead unlooped normal service was resumed, looping the 250 cable alone made for an analytical sound. There may be a cable dressing sensitivity to the SL but I never got it to satisfy.

Tony2011 posted:

Steve J posted:

MDS posted:

Allo, new avatar! Have you just bought one of the last Defenders Steve?

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Totally out of topic but why a Defender, Steve? 

I intended to buy a Defender when I moved back to Devon Tony where it will be put to good use. I only realised a few weeks ago that they were going out of production and secondhand values were rocketing to the extent that one to two year old cars were going for new car list price and above. I managed to find a new car available at a dealer not far from me so decided to buy now instead of later. It will prove useful in the short term with moving some things we'll need down to the new house in Devon as the main move from Bushey won't be for some time yet.

The Defender is a bit agricultural to drive and isn't suited to where I live now but is great fun, especially off road which Is where it will come into it's own in Devon. 

I hadn't driven one for about forty years until the test drive last week and not much has changed apart from a few mod cons like A/C and electric windows. It's like buying a 'new' vintage car. My wife loves it too which is a bonus.

Steve J posted:

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Congratulations on both fronts Steve! Your Defender truly must be one of the very last if it is still at the factory.  More importantly, delighted to hear that the purchase has gone through on the home in Devon.

Now that you have the cables sorted, how about a nice little 3 box amplifier to make up the "good news comes in threes"?  There is one with an illuminated white stripe across the middle to go with the colour of your new Defender...

Safe drive to Devon.

Best regards, FT

Steve, You have interesting times ahead. I look forward to meeting you on the 27th ATB Minh

I've heard systems and components that don't seem to time properly and I've heard stuff that obviously does. How exactly do I tell if a system or component is artificially emphasising timing? That's a new one.

Steve J posted:

MDS posted:

Allo, new avatar! Have you just bought one of the last Defenders Steve?

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Congratulations Steve! As a dedicated Land Rover lover I can only applaud your immaculate taste. I suspect your new one will be slightly more sophisticated than the old Series IIAs & III I used to run. Great news too about your place in Devon; a complete change of lifestyle's coming up!

Best wishes,

Tony.

k90tour2 posted:

"I always struggle with the discussion of hifi vs emotional engagement: to me, good music is emotionally engaging almost regardless of what it is played on, just gets better the more it sounds like the band/orchestra/singer being there. But then I never did get the PRaT thing, which in part i put down to my taste in music"

I don't get the PRaT thing.  Timing is in the music.  For me, anything that is emphasising timing by reducing decay is tinkering with the recording.  I'd prefer it as it comes off the master tape. I started a thread about this thing last year 'Do we need PRaT' and every comment missed the point. I've never come out of the Barbican Hall and thought  "Great PRaT, I'll come again". I think I'd better grab a hard hat now, I think.

 

Steve J posted:

Tony2011 posted:

Steve J posted:

MDS posted:

Allo, new avatar! Have you just bought one of the last Defenders Steve?

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Totally out of topic but why a Defender, Steve? 

I intended to buy a Defender when I moved back to Devon Tony where it will be put to good use. I only realised a few weeks ago that they were going out of production and secondhand values were rocketing to the extent that one to two year old cars were going for new car list price and above. I managed to find a new car available at a dealer not far from me so decided to buy now instead of later. It will prove useful in the short term with moving some things we'll need down to the new house in Devon as the main move from Bushey won't be for some time yet.

The Defender is a bit agricultural to drive and isn't suited to where I live now but is great fun, especially off road which Is where it will come into it's own in Devon. 

I hadn't driven one for about forty years until the test drive last week and not much has changed apart from a few mod cons like A/C and electric windows. It's like buying a 'new' vintage car. My wife loves it too which is a bonus.

Like old 911s, the Defender is set to rocket in value. Good darts! 

Steve J posted:

MDS posted:

Allo, new avatar! Have you just bought one of the last Defenders Steve?

Correct Mike. It's still at the factory and I'm taking delivery March 1st with a 16 plate.

Also, just yesterday I had news that my offer on the house we'll retire to in Devon has been accepted. Busy times ahead.

Steve

Congratulations on both acquisitions, Steve.  No doubt the defender will feel at home in Devon.

Mike

jon honeyball posted:

Ken: this was with full statement pre power. And 300. And 300dr. And...

everyone has their own set of priorities. I could completely understand thAt someone utterly loves the things that sl speaker cable undoubtably does. But it doesn't groove as well. And thus was two sets of sl speaker. 

let me make sure i understand this Jon. what you are saying is that even with Statement pre/power (for which the SL speaker cable was designed as i recall). you still preferred the 'grove' of the NACA5 in this top flight system? I take it the 'grove' was OK for you with SL interconnects?

enjoy

ken

Harry posted:

I've heard systems and components that don't seem to time properly and I've heard stuff that obviously does. How exactly do I tell if a system or component is artificially emphasising timing? That's a new one.

ken c posted:

jon honeyball posted:

Ken: this was with full statement pre power. And 300. And 300dr. And...

everyone has their own set of priorities. I could completely understand thAt someone utterly loves the things that sl speaker cable undoubtably does. But it doesn't groove as well. And thus was two sets of sl speaker. 

let me make sure i understand this Jon. what you are saying is that even with Statement pre/power (for which the SL speaker cable was designed as i recall). you still preferred the 'grove' of the NACA5 in this top flight system? I take it the 'grove' was OK for you with SL interconnects?

enjoy

ken

Yes. And 300 and 300DR and two sets of SL speaker cables, in case one was wrong.

But thats my view (and views of others, but I'm not speaking for them here). Others will doubtless disagree, which is fine with me.

Innocent Bystander posted:

My assumption is that the terminology often used is wrong,

Possibly, although according to my ears this is a wrong assumption but it is doubtless different for all of us. Maybe timing means different things to different people. If it really is as blurred as all that, it's probably useless to try to define it. However, in the Naim universe, timing is king and discussions I've had down the years with Naim people, dealers and fellow music lovers including some forum members face to face indicate that when we say "timing" we are talking about the same thing. And of course, Naim is not unique in this regard.

The big Naim moment for me was hearing a how a CD5 portrayed musical timing. Suddenly everything made sense. Off the back of this and many subsequent auditions of a number of manufacturers, I don't see how a sense of proper timing can be confused with anything else. You can either hear how the musicians are playing off each other, who/what is leading, who/what is following, cross over points, hand offs, etc. or you don't. It's got nothing to do with the tempo or speed. Or at least not according to my ears.

Putting differences aside as to what people think timing actually is (probably the same thing for most of us), how can something artificially emphasise timing? I can see how it would mess up the timing but I don't see how it can over enphasise something which is either off or nailed. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Harry posted:

I've heard systems and components that don't seem to time properly and I've heard stuff that obviously does. How exactly do I tell if a system or component is artificially emphasising timing? That's a new one.

Turning this around, it could be asked how is rhythm - which is the regularity of the beat - changed by the electronics and so supposedly altered in many non-Naim systems? Ditto timing, which I take to be relative timing between notes? And pace, which presumably means the overall speed, i.e slowing the whole thing down or speeding it up? 

My assumption is that the terminology often used is wrong, and neither P,R nor T are ever altered as such (latter excluding faulty turnrable speed or digital player clock),  but rather can be made less prominent to the listener if the note envelope of percussive sounds is altered, e.g. by inadequate slew rate of an amp, or due to cone inertia in a speaker). The result of that is a softening of the audible cues, departing from the original recorded sound by making it less percussive (though nothing is changed in actual rhythm or pace).

Improving slew rate or lowering/countering speaker inertia would be expected to sharpen the percussive effect of any sounds degraded in that way (this, in fact, merely being seeking of accuracy), and indeed my impression is that slew rate has been a primary focus of Naim amps.

However, it seems to me that, subjectively, rhythm cues, and thus awareness of rhythm and timing, can be emphasised by enhancing the relative mix of the audio spectrum so that the part carrying the primary rhythm information is dominant. Most notably this means percussion and percussive instruments such as plucked basses. The midrange is crucial to presentation of percussion, even with percussive bass instruments (the harmonics can be significant in the front edge of the note, and with the sole exception of some synthesised sounds, all bass instruments have sufficient harmonic content that they can be clearly heard even if the note fundamental is removed completely).

So, getting a clear, undistorted midrange is a key factor in presenting PRaT information - and if the midrange is emphasised relative to any other part of the audio spectrum, PRaT will be emphasised - and from much of the information presented on these forums it seems not uncommon that systems with severely curtailed bottom octaves are liked by people seeking PRaT, which is consistent with my assessment.

This is not suggesting there's anything wrong with emphasising PRaT by de-emphasising some other element of the music, as it's simply a matter of taste - equally some prefer an overall neutral balance with nothing emphasised or de-emphasised (including wanting to have the rise time of percussive sounds true to life).

Given that no system is perfect (taking perfection to mean the sound received by the listener is indistinguishable from that s/he would have heard if present at the recorded performance), I suppose the real questions for each individual listener are:  within available budget what compromises are least undesirable for maximum enjoyment of the music? Or for some, perhaps: what aspects of music do you like best and least? And I suspect the acceptable compromises may differ with musical style preferences, experience of live music, experiences with recorded music, and maybe whether a given system is seen as a path to something better, or a fixed system for the forseeable future.

 

 

What a thoughtful and well-reasoned argument regarding PRaT (the advantages  AND the compromises). This all make a lot of sense to be.

"disagreeing" on matters subjective, such as HiFi i guess goes without saying. And your view is just as valid as any other. I just wanted to understand a bit more the context of your assessment on this Jon -- and thanks for provding that. Was this demo at Naim Audio?

i am sure you understand though why i would find it very strange that such an expensive component from Naim would fail on one of the very fundamentals of the 'naim sound'  -- i.e. timing. Of course, one could argue, again, that this is all subjective and one man's poor timing is another man's 'true' timing -- but i would find this argument tenuous at best.

So either the environment of the demo was somehow not favourable (again, unlikely, but that is what i ask about where the demo was -- if at Naim, then the environment should then be totally irrelevant) or ...?

may i check again that you dont have the same view on the SL IC?  Were you using SL DIN XLR? Were the cables fully run-in? (though Steve J's were fully run since used for 7 months ) but useful to know anyhow.

As i said in another thread, when i got the SL IC, i felt that i had been missing something without it -- and that probably my system would be more complete with a 'full loom'. From what you guys are saying, given the cost of this cable upgrade, i should probably tread more carefully...

Hmmm... exciting times ahead... or not???

enjoy

ken

Harry posted:

 

Putting differences aside as to what people think timing actually is (probably the same thing for most of us), how can something artificially emphasise timing? I can see how it would mess up the timing but I don't see how it can over enphasise something which is either off or nailed. 

Only in that by making the rhythmic part of the music prominent the timing would (presumably) become more evident. But conversely i dont see how some systems allegedly lose timing of a recorded piece...

However, this is over-analysing my original comment: "no artificial emphasis (or de-emphasis) of anything: tone, frequency, rhythm, timing, etc" really just meant without altering the balance of anything, and wasn't picking out those in particular, merely citing them as some aspects of music that get mentioned in various discussions of replay systems, adding in references to PRaT to the more limited scope of emphasis mentioned by the contributor to whom I was responding.

Put simply, I think SL speaker cables sound more sophisticated than NAC A5, or that NAC A5 sounds like 'old Naim' and SL sounds like 'new Naim'. As ever; personal preference, room acoustics and equipment synergy will be the deciding factors.

SL seems to make modern digital recordings easier to listen to, and I guess it's inevitable that some newer recordings will have been used in its development. I can understand a vinyl replay synergy with NAC A5 as the 'old Naim' sonic signature.

Unlike Steve, I've found SL speaker cable to be an unqualified success in my system in all musical areas. The boogie-factor is maintained for me, but I know that some people like Jon H love that 'old Naim' hair-shirt leading-edge slam which the old kit (and NAC A5) does so well. Loudspeaker matching must play a part.

As ever; it's nice to have the choice. I am told that there are some strange people on the planet don't like the sound of any Naim products. Heretical but true.

John.

i also find it interesting that the intellectual debate on 'timing' issue seems more vigorous when the negative is opined -- e.g. a naim component doesnt time well -- whereas, as i reall, there have been many posts where the opposite had been opined, with not much banter afterwards. natural i guesss... 

never has so much opinion/subjective views been argued on by so few... ooops sorry! 

enjoy

ken