Super Lumina Speaker Cable. More HiFi Less Music?

Perception of 'timing' is varied and personal in my opinion from what I have observed. I found what I will call the small-scale timing of the music supported by all sorts of backing instruments far better with SL cables - and also the very large scale presentation of larger bass instrumentation far easier to hear and enjoy. NAC A5 is very good, but I find it does the overall top-level flow of the music well but does not really resolve the other aspects as well - to the way I hear things.

I fully get and respect why some people may prefer NAC A5 in their system to the SL speaker cable, but do not find this myself.
One thing I have noticed since living with SL speaker leads for several months, is that my range of music that I play has increased and I finally begin to enjoy male vocals much better without the colouration of the NAC A5.

The SL cable lets a lot more through the system and I have found that some more effort to system-build and set-up helped all that to present in a good way. The NAC A5 covered-over a multitude of things and was double-edged for me - it made it harder to tune-up my system to perform at its best covered-over some problems. The SL leads allowed me to hear much better what I was doing. The end-result I have is a very fluid organic and immersive musical presentation that draws me it and continuously delights with new insights every time I play an old favorite.

More music and less HiFi for me with the SL cables.
I have no lingering fondness for any return of NAC A5 leads - they served well for many years but they are eclipsed in every respect by the SL speaker leads in my system.

DB.

"I don't get the PRaT thing.  Timing is in the music. "  

The PRAT thing always provokes lively discussion - mostly because we're all struggling with an abstract concept .  But the best way to demonstrate the concept is with an amp that can't do it.  I heard a yamaha amp years ago that made nonsense of the timing and made the music completely disengaging 

bluedog posted:

"I don't get the PRaT thing.  Timing is in the music. "  

The PRAT thing always provokes lively discussion - mostly because we're all struggling with an abstract concept .  But the best way to demonstrate the concept is with an amp that can't do it.  I heard a yamaha amp years ago that made nonsense of the timing and made the music completely disengaging 

you may be on to something here bluedog. i.e. something define by its absence!

else, can any forum member offer a 'definition' of 'timing' that can help us ensure we are all talking about the same thing?

enjoy

ken

am i dreaming that 911gt3r may be back? yipee, that would be really great...! just see his avatar somewhere and evidence of some activity here... Peter, if you are reading this, if you come back, i will visit you and listen to some music on your lovey system.

ok, enough teasing... sorry i'm a bit off topic i know...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

am i dreaming that 911gt3r may be back? yipee, that would be really great...! just see his avatar somewhere and evidence of some activity here... Peter, if you are reading this, if you come back, i will visit you and listen to some music on your lovey system.

ok, enough teasing... sorry i'm a bit off topic i know...

enjoy

ken

Peter popped up briefly on the thread about PMC speakers, Ken.

Mike, many thanks...

enjoy

ken

Steve J posted:

ken c posted:

Hmmm... potentially, this thread could save me at least £8.4K !  but i am aware there are many variables in this great hobby of ours...

enjoy...

ken

 

Ken,

You are more than welcome to spend some time listening to the differences between the two cables in my system. I'm only twenty minutes away. You might derive some 'Benefit' from it. 

ATB

Steve

I will definiely arrange a visit Steve ... you are going to be quite busy arent you over the next couple of weeks?-- but we'll sort something out... and thanks for inviting me... i hate driving these days, but you are close enough so i should be OK..

enjoy

ken

FangfossFlyer posted:

 

...

I began to have my doubts as I did not feel my system was lacking ....  

i must admit i am also beginning to ask myself -- where does one draw the line with all these upgrades. SL DIN XLR, speaker wire and DR upgrades are on my radar right now. but its not as if i am sitting listening to my system and thinking "oh, such and such is lacking -- perhaps i need this and that upgrade".

having said that, in my case, the SL snaxo 4-4DIN was a real revelation and makes it quite difficult to maintain the sensible approach above.

Ah well...

enjoy

ken

k90tour2 posted:

I've never come out of the Barbican Hall and thought  "Great PRaT, I'll come again". I think I'd better grab a hard hat now, I think.

 

neither have i -- and good point i think...

but it begs the question -- we have all this lingo to describe the way our hifi systems sound. what language do we use then to describe live music. this could bring some reality into this whole discussion?

enjoy

ken

Reality? When I attend concerts of a local baroque group (Arion Ensemble), and the music starts, all hi-fi considerations go straight out the window. Goosebumps from the first notes and a rightness to the sound that serves as a humbling reminder of just how far audio systems are from the real thing. And I include the Statement in that last, er, statement.

1. ken c posted:

k90tour2 posted:

I've never come out of the Barbican Hall and thought  "Great PRaT, I'll come again". I think I'd better grab a hard hat now, I think.

 

neither have i -- and good point i think...

but it begs the question -- we have all this lingo to describe the way our hifi systems sound. what language do we use then to describe live music. this could bring some reality into this whole discussion?

enjoy

ken

Although  this is an interesting thought for an approach to the question, it is very different  to the music reproduction consideration: with live music, whether acoustic or amplified, you are given what you are given and assessments are to do with enjoyment of it, that one performance, whereas with hifi systems you are trying to build a system that achieves a quality of sound reproduction that meets your subjective requirement (in my case that is trying to achieve what I perceive to be a realistic sound, or in other words transparency to the original recording, assuming that the recording itself is representative of the performance), and assessments are to do with how close or otherwise the system achieves that, and across all 'performances' of different material.

Descriptive assessments with hifi therefore are relative to what you want the system to sound like, and I doubt anyone applies the same thought when listening live, I certainly don't, though I might criticise if the acoustics and/or PA give me a sound that is unclear, distorted, shrill (or other subjective words related to unbalanced frequency range, but not normally thining in terms of frequency). Any assessments off rhythm, timing or pace have been to do with the performance, the musicians being sloppy and not playing quite in time with one another, or complimenting  spot-on timing when they consistently come in precicely together in difficult bits, otherwise if a piece seems to have been laboured, or played too fast compared to my expectation - things that are never altered by anything in any hifi system other than if the turntable speed or digital player clock speed is wrong to a material degree - and impossible for any amp or speaker to alter.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Reality? When I attend concerts of a local baroque group (Arion Ensemble), and the music starts, all hi-fi considerations go straight out the window. Goosebumps from the first notes and a rightness to the sound that serves as a humbling reminder of just how far audio systems are from the real thing. And I include the Statement in that last, er, statement.

And thats precisely what I want my system at home to achieve - and with some music it does - but in a direct comparison it never sounds exactly the same, of course you can never have the live ambience without the musicians and audience there

Hungryhalibut posted:

ken c posted:

Hmmm... potentially, this thread could save me at least £8.4K !  but i am aware there are many variables in this great hobby of ours...

enjoy...

ken

 

Clearly there is a lot of personal preference at play,

It also could be a placebo effect, after spending that kind of money on cables, you tell yourself, it just has to sound better, one, because it's a Naim cable, so it has to be the best, and two, I've just spent on cables what the majority of people in the world spend on an automobile, it better sound better, because there is no way I (narcissistic tendencies) could have possibly made a mistake.

When in reality it just sounds a little different, I did say little, not massive. At least not enough to warrant the difference in price. Just my opinion!

ken c posted:

FangfossFlyer posted:

 

...

I began to have my doubts as I did not feel my system was lacking ....  

i must admit i am also beginning to ask myself -- where does one draw the line with all these upgrades. SL DIN XLR, speaker wire and DR upgrades are on my radar right now. but its not as if i am sitting listening to my system and thinking "oh, such and such is lacking -- perhaps i need this and that upgrade".

having said that, in my case, the SL snaxo 4-4DIN was a real revelation and makes it quite difficult to maintain the sensible approach above.

Ah well...

enjoy

ken

Maybe one should concentrate on what their system does instead of what it doesn't do. You may save yourself huge amounts of money.

Remember, when the equipment becomes more important than the music, it's time to rethink why you got into this stuff in the first place.

Different speakers, different results.

Different amps (Non DR vs DR), different results

Seems SL works well with the DR amps.

ken c posted:

FangfossFlyer posted:

 

...

I began to have my doubts as I did not feel my system was lacking ....  

i must admit i am also beginning to ask myself -- where does one draw the line with all these upgrades. SL DIN XLR, speaker wire and DR upgrades are on my radar right now. but its not as if i am sitting listening to my system and thinking "oh, such and such is lacking -- perhaps i need this and that upgrade".

having said that, in my case, the SL snaxo 4-4DIN was a real revelation and makes it quite difficult to maintain the sensible approach above.

Ah well...

enjoy

ken

The point seems to be that one never knew what one is was missing until one suddenly hears it, then one realises there was more to be heard and enjoyed all the while, and that one had been missing out on the experience.

This is why so many of us here have a rule that says 'Don't audition it if you can't afford it'... ignorance really is bliss, in my opinion.   (Mind you, the Statement is the exception... I don't mind listening to something that's so far away from what I can afford... keeps me motivated to keep investing in the lottery)   

 

Clearly there is a lot of personal preference at play, and possibly system synergy too. One interesting thing is that the £30 a metre A5 is clearly still a real competitor for the £300 a metre SL. 

Is it as much as that now?

When I bought my Nac A5 back in 2005 I seem to remember paying £10/m (or is my memory playing tricks?), which would be about £14 today, adjusting for inflation. Copper prices did go up, but they are now back down to 2005 levels.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Reality? When I attend concerts of a local baroque group (Arion Ensemble), and the music starts, all hi-fi considerations go straight out the window. Goosebumps from the first notes and a rightness to the sound that serves as a humbling reminder of just how far audio systems are from the real thing. And I include the Statement in that last, er, statement.

well put.  so do you think the reason we have developed such ambiguous/meaningless terminology to describe the sound of our hifi system is precisely because of just how far (in deficiency) they are from the 'real' thing.

but we often hear folks saying 'like musicians in my listening room'? is that somewhat more meaningful?

i suspect the BIG advabtage of live music may be the fact that we have visual as well as aural cues - stimulates more than one sense. The fact that in hifi -- all we have are black boxes on a rack, probably explains why we get attached to them and we start describing them in all manner of meaningless gibberish(sp?)...

enjoy

ken

i am listening to Radio 3 on my system right now before i leave for a business appointment -- it sounds "very good" indeed.

i guess the problem comes when i try to descibe just "how good" it is. i dont know the music i am hearing so cannot realistically compare with 'live' event -- but its still mesmerising even in the confined space of my office.

some very interesting points here -- will respond when i come back later... unless i decide not to bother and just play music on my system :-)

enjoy

ken

High quality music replay in one's home is a wholly artificial construct with a lot of modern music, so 'High Fidelity' becomes a bit of a misnomer. Judging by most of the rock-type music concerts I have attended; I wouldn't want that sound at home.

John.

J.N. posted:

. Judging by most of the rock-type music concerts I have attended; I wouldn't want that sound at home.

In my experience there was a vast improvement in PA systems over the earlier years of rock music, such that i've rarely had occasion to gripe since maybe the 1980s regardless of whether big or small venues (mind you, I avoid stadium type gigs) - and I certainly am happy to reproduce something similar at home. But admittedly sometimes you do get bad PA systems, or mixes, or perhaps bad acoustics in the venue, and the sound engineer has a perfect balance, just not anyone else...  A bit like the 'sweet spot' with some hifi system/room combinations.

Agreed IB - gig SQ has improved a lot in recent times. Sometimes it's just a matter of shitty a-cow-sticks. 

John. 

I occasionally listen to bands in pubs. Indeed I have live music in my own pub. Due to the confined space, pubs are not good venues for live music in general but some venues 'sound' better than others. In fact my own pub is quite small (where we have live bands playing) with very low ceilings (it is 15th century building) and should 'sound' terrible. It doesn't, it sound terrific. I have had a 4-piece rock band with a full drum kit and it was brilliant. I think it is to do with the fact I have a lot of sound absorbing furniture (padded coverings) and it is timber framed with several large exposed timber beams, posts and floor joists to break up reflections and add some much needed deadening. The irregular shape of the room with a lot of furniture items also help in this regard.

One pub I go to to hear live music is bigger than my own pub but it often sounds terrible and they have much better PA equipment. The building is modern with flat walls, ceiling and floors with minimal furniture (you tend to stand in this establishment). The main problem is that they simply have the volume up waaay too loud. Instruments and vocals tend to merge into an amorphous mush of sound as the PA amps start to distort and these poor old ears of mine start to shut down from the barrage. I normally only stay for an hour (the first set) and my ears are ringing for some time after. Mind you, I have heard some great bands there, just wish they would turn it down a bit. Less is more, or am I just being an old git?

Well produced live music is of course a huge distance away from that produced in our homes. The environments are of course very different, as are the means of reproduction and also what we want from live music is often different from what we want (or is acceptable) in our own homes. Our differeing moods, attitudes and expectations between the live and in-home 'performance' also play a part in this. Hearing bands live and hearing (even the same) bands at home are on very different 'occasions' with very different expectations.

So, on reflection, do I want to replicate exactly a live performance in my home? I am not sure I do. But me think some more about that one.

The best live sound I ever heard came from The Blue Nile at Cambridge Corn Exchange. It was like a furking great Hi-Fi system. 

They learned something from The Scottish Company then. 

John. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

J.N. posted:

. Judging by most of the rock-type music concerts I have attended; I wouldn't want that sound at home.

In my experience there was a vast improvement in PA systems over the earlier years of rock music, such that i've rarely had occasion to gripe since maybe the 1980s regardless of whether big or small venues (mind you, I avoid stadium type gigs) - and I certainly am happy to reproduce something similar at home. But admittedly sometimes you do get bad PA systems, or mixes, or perhaps bad acoustics in the venue, and the sound engineer has a perfect balance, just not anyone else...  A bit like the 'sweet spot' with some hifi system/room combinations.

 

Wow, I'm clearly going to the wrong places.  Most of the small venue gigs I've attended have been around Norwich, either UEA, Arts Centre, or Waterfront.  Most recently I saw Cast play at the Waterfront, and the sound was awful, and there is no way I'd want that in my house.  I still enjoyed the gig, but the noise level peaked at 100dB, which is fine, but it averaged about 99dB, which is not.  Literally everything was as loud as everything else, and that's what messes it all up.  One of the best gigs I've seen / heard at the mentioned venues was Mumford and Sons at the Arts Centre, but I still wouldn't swap for hifi kit that recreated that sound in my house, a view that stood before I owned any of my current hifi kit.  The best PA sound I've heard was The Beautiful South at Crystal Palace, that actually sounded good, which for rock / pop gigs pretty rare in my experience.