What's next with Naim?

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'd like to see speakers with active amplification built in, and able to go against the wall. It would be much cheaper than having to buy the amps separately as there is no need for all the expensive casing. In fact, just like Meridian did all those years ago, and various companies do now - Adam, ATC, PMC, Meridian, Linn..... Needing about 25 boxes and a few dozen wires (I know, it's an exaggeration, but you know what I mean) to get a full blown active system is rather bonkers - most people don't have the room and don't want their sitting room looking like a Hifi shop. Bung the amps in the bottom of the Ovator, Sopra or whatever, plug in a 272, 292, 572 or whatever, and off you go. 

I bought some 135's last week-end from a dealer who carries the Vitus range; he was observing that the trend over recent years has been for customers to move away from the multi-box approach in a bid for comparable sound quality from a simpler set up and fewer boxes.  Alas Mrs Bluedog was in attendance and became unusually interested in the hifi conversation at this point!!

bluedog posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I wonder if  we might see some new speakers...

Would that not seem unlikely given their relationship with Focal and that company's apparent recent efforts to make their own Sopra work better with Naim electronics?

I am not sure, the way brands work you could argue it is more likely given the Focal relationship and shared R&D

Simon

The Strat (Fender) posted:

YanC posted:

 The current Naim line fails to inspire me.

Excluding the out of reach Statement, there seems to be a large array of components, that are very similar in function, and whose difference is based primarily on the use of better external power supplies (!). Plus, the 'record' series of buttons are still there (!?!).

Looking around, there is a strong trend towards systems that include superior pre-amp/DAC coupled with monoblocks. Naim is in neither camp with the DAC V1 (their only offering), which falls very short of say the 552 and DAC of equivalent quality.

 

I hope Naim introduces more synergy among their offerings and less overlap, but I am beginning to run out of patience.

 'nough said.

What do you want to see coming our of Salisbury this year?

Stone me some people are hard to please - couldn't imagine a more comprehensive range of products.

If you  look at the portfolio from the outside I think it must seem very confusing. 

 In the 12 or so years that I have owned Naim, only the CDS3  has been eliminated from the portfolio and so many other products have been introduced.

 There is a huge gap in the NAim portfolio for a high end DAC, have a look at the price list and see where their current top of the range DAC lives in comparison to all the other products they sell. 

 I think they are missing a trick in not having a streamer separate from preamplifiers and streamers with DACs.  We have many on here using a naim streamer into outboard DAC,  so it should be easily possible to have a product to serve this market. 

SJB

Naim is more of an evolutionary kind of company than one which feels it needs to find something revolutionary every year.  I'm sure from comments that have been made they look at many options for more revolutionary products, but they are unable to make things sound as good as their current offerings (in their opinion).

cat345 posted:

I'd like to see a large screen FM & Internet Tuner with a digital output. 

I vote for that, plus could we throw in DAB just in-case FM ever gets turned off.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

bluedog posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I wonder if  we might see some new speakers...

Would that not seem unlikely given their relationship with Focal and that company's apparent recent efforts to make their own Sopra work better with Naim electronics?

I am not sure, the way brands work you could argue it is more likely given the Focal relationship and shared R&D

Simon

I believe the text books refer to it a s"brand proliferation"?

It would be nice if Naim and Focal would use their relationship to develop active Focal speakers: Speakers without passive crossovers from Focal and the matching Snaxos from Naim. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Would that not seem unlikely given their relationship with Focal and that company's apparent recent efforts to make their own Sopra work better with Naim electronics?

I am not sure, the way brands work you could argue it is more likely given the Focal relationship and shared R&D

Simon

Isn't this treading along the same rocky road as BLMC did with different brands of the same company competing. ???

In terms of speakers, it's more likely that Naim stop making them altogether. Why are they demonstrating the Statement at Bristol with Focals rather than their own S800? 

jfritzen posted:

It would be nice if Naim and Focal would use their relationship to develop active Focal speakers: Speakers without passive crossovers from Focal and the matching Snaxos from Naim. 

Well Focal already make active speakers...

On the thought of SNAXOs though ... I wonder if Naim will follow Linn's route of digital based crossovers?

Hungryhalibut posted:

In terms of speakers, it's more likely that Naim stop making them altogether. Why are they demonstrating the Statement at Bristol with Focals rather than their own S800? 

My thoughts exactly

Mike-B posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Would that not seem unlikely given their relationship with Focal and that company's apparent recent efforts to make their own Sopra work better with Naim electronics?

I am not sure, the way brands work you could argue it is more likely given the Focal relationship and shared R&D

Simon

Isn't this treading along the same rocky road as BLMC did with different brands of the same company competing. ???

yes, but there could be new products for new markets - perhaps a line of smaller speakers... perhaps using some of the learning from Muso etc? Anyway I know nothing......... and my days of product development are a few years back..

Eloise posted:

jfritzen posted:

It would be nice if Naim and Focal would use their relationship to develop active Focal speakers: Speakers without passive crossovers from Focal and the matching Snaxos from Naim. 

Well Focal already make active speakers...

OK, I should have written: matching Snaxos and amps from Naim.

Looking in as a bit of an outsider (with no Naim components in my main system, and a solitary Naim component in my 2nd system), unlike most who post here, I have some sympathy for the OP. He certainly doesn't merit the ridicule contained in some of the responses.

Ignoring marketing strategy and profit-margins (I have absolutely no idea of what they might be), I would guess that products such as the Statement and Naim for Bentley hold very little interest (certainly from an aspirational perspective) for most prospective Naim Audio owners out there. I do get that there is likely to be some "trickle down" benefit from the Statement range, but that may be limited given the sheer disparity in respect of cost between the Statement and the nearest products in the Naim range.

Again, as an outsider, I feel that there are just too many boxes and combinations of boxes in the range, and that the upgrade route to the top of the tree is just too expensive, wasteful and complicated. As I write this, I have just realised that one mitigation of this approach to upgrading is the 2nd hand value that Naim products command. This will obviously ease the process to some extent, but I feel that my points are still valid. There are many Naim owners out there (and particularly on this forum), for whom this whole process is something of an adventure, and a positive attraction, but it will be anathema to many more prospective owners out there. 

My own story is that when considering a move to network streaming many years ago now, I auditioned products from Linn and Naim, along with other less expensive models from Marantz and Pioneer. These were initially auditioned using by and large middle of the range amplification from Naim and Linn, and speakers from the likes of B&W, Harbeth and Spendor (since no local dealer stocked my Magnepan speakers). I still remember listening to a Naim streamer and being told that my upgrade options would ideally involve buying a separate power supply (XPS), then an external DAC (nDAC). I ended up auditioning a 3 box Naim streaming option that offered a relatively minor upgrade in sound quality (to my ears), introduced a huge amount of redundancy and would have cost a pretty huge amount of money. I have to admit that this put me off somewhat. I ended up being in the lucky position of being able to borrow (then buy) a Klimax Renew from a friend to try out in my system. So much neater as a solution, and sounding much better to my ears. 

By the way, I subsequently bought a Naim ND5 XS for my second system, and if you look at my profile, will spot that somewhat ironically , I use this with an external power supply and DAC. 

As a suggestion for new products in the range - what about a high-end integrated dual mono amplifier to rival those from the likes of Vitus, Gryphon, MBL or Lindemann. High-end Naim Audio quality without the need for lots of boxes. Now this might appeal to me in the future, and I suspect also to an awful lot of people out there. It might be 'pretty' expensive, but not up there with the likes of Statement and Bentley, and after all we now have the Muso and Muso QB to balance out the other end.   

In principle, I am not against allowing upgrades to the boxes in the form of power supplies but the way it is done should be kept simple.

Even as I continue to read and reread the Naim connection guide for the amps, I still struggle to understand the need for some connections to carry both audio and power signals and mind you, there are different types of these out there.

shouldn't all preamp outputs be XLR and all power amp inputs be XLR?

Why should the audio signals be routed through the power supplies before eventually going to the power amp ?

Three years ago I entered the world of Naim with a nDac + Nait XS and it took me at least one year of reading the forum and talking to my dealer to get an understanding of the product range, the power supplies, the upgrade possibilities etc.

So I would absolutely agree that the world of Naim electronics is (too?) complex.

On the other side of the medal, the complexity of the modular approach to build a system to ones individual needs and preferences, is highly rewarding and a key factor for a suistainable and long lasting brand relationship.

If Naim would choose to be simple and easy, Naim would become easily replacebale and less loveable at the same time.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I'd like to see them retain a commitment to active loudspeakers in any new range.

Not sure they will-it seems to be becoming a rather niche concept.

Bruce

Also agree re multi-box vs single box options. Both have their uses and adherents. I like incremental upgrading personally.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'd like to see speakers with active amplification built in, and able to go against the wall. It would be much cheaper than having to buy the amps separately as there is no need for all the expensive casing. In fact, just like Meridian did all those years ago, and various companies do now - Adam, ATC, PMC, Meridian, Linn..... Needing about 25 boxes and a few dozen wires (I know, it's an exaggeration, but you know what I mean) to get a full blown active system is rather bonkers - most people don't have the room and don't want their sitting room looking like a Hifi shop. Bung the amps in the bottom of the Ovator, Sopra or whatever, plug in a 272, 292, 572 or whatever, and off you go. 

Gentlemen, you may be on to something here.

In the latest edition of hi-if+, they are testing a 272 with active ATC SCM40A speakers (active as in amps in the speakers), and apparently damn fine this truly 3-box (that's 3 including speakers for this box count watchers) system sounds.

Indeed the author of this review even suggested that Naim might try to persuade their partners (OK owners) to install some Naim amplification into the Sopras.

Now that would be interesting, particularly with a 292 or 572 or what ever they call son of 272 if it were ever to appear.

Hi guys,

at some point,I asked myself : "what are the functions of a preamp ?".  I could get no further then : selection of input signal, volume control.  I am unaware of other conditioning that may happen in the preamp.

Now, that would mean, that if you only need one input (as I do), then even a simple copper cable beats the NAC S1.  copper gets the signal transferred - pretty damn well.  Volume control can then take place in the amp itself.  Others may correct my feeling here.

taking that reasoning further along, I am totally with the guys above that want to see an integrated streamer/pre-amp.  I wonder how many of us Naim users are using more than 2 inputs - and never use any of the record-options.  I would guess 95%.

ready for the 572 - but will still test it against the then small DAC with the funny name.

Ben

Apart from technological aspects I think that every company has it's own DNA, has something that distinguish its products from the one of other companies that operate in the same market. In my eyes the Naim DNA resides in the "boxes", in the separation between "brain" and PSU, in achieving the best SQ through the best preamp an engineer can realize. If you take this out of the equation you don't have Naim any more ! Technology has proven that you can achieve a very high SQ by putting everything in a box connected digitally to a speaker that contain the DSP and the amplification but ... this is another brand and another story !

Sloop John B posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

YanC posted:

 The current Naim line fails to inspire me.

Excluding the out of reach Statement, there seems to be a large array of components, that are very similar in function, and whose difference is based primarily on the use of better external power supplies (!). Plus, the 'record' series of buttons are still there (!?!).

Looking around, there is a strong trend towards systems that include superior pre-amp/DAC coupled with monoblocks. Naim is in neither camp with the DAC V1 (their only offering), which falls very short of say the 552 and DAC of equivalent quality.

 

I hope Naim introduces more synergy among their offerings and less overlap, but I am beginning to run out of patience.

 'nough said.

What do you want to see coming our of Salisbury this year?

Stone me some people are hard to please - couldn't imagine a more comprehensive range of products.

If you  look at the portfolio from the outside I think it must seem very confusing. 

 In the 12 or so years that I have owned Naim, only the CDS3  has been eliminated from the portfolio and so many other products have been introduced.

 There is a huge gap in the NAim portfolio for a high end DAC, have a look at the price list and see where their current top of the range DAC lives in comparison to all the other products they sell. 

 I think they are missing a trick in not having a streamer separate from preamplifiers and streamers with DACs.  We have many on here using a naim streamer into outboard DAC,  so it should be easily possible to have a product to serve this market. 

SJB

Sloop I'm not really familiar with the DAC thing but I would have thought the nDac with 555 must be pretty high end.  

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'd like to see speakers with active amplification built in, and able to go against the wall. It would be much cheaper than having to buy the amps separately as there is no need for all the expensive casing. In fact, just like Meridian did all those years ago, and various companies do now - Adam, ATC, PMC, Meridian, Linn..... Needing about 25 boxes and a few dozen wires (I know, it's an exaggeration, but you know what I mean) to get a full blown active system is rather bonkers - most people don't have the room and don't want their sitting room looking like a Hifi shop. Bung the amps in the bottom of the Ovator, Sopra or whatever, plug in a 272, 292, 572 or whatever, and off you go. 

I've previously mentioned that this is exactly the kind of 3 box system I'm interested in. Throw in digital cross overs and hook the whole thing up with a couple of ethernet cables. It's not particularly important to me but some might like wireless comms between the speakers and pre/streamer/dac.

@NIGELB Thanks for the HiFi+ reference about the 272 with active ATC SCM40A speakers. 

Further to your comments about the active Sopras, I thought the beginning of the second paragraph was also quite interesting. Jason Kennedy writes:

It seems that the good burgers of Salisbury are interested in whether this approach has legs because the idea for this system came from those quarters.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'd like to see speakers with active amplification built in, and able to go against the wall. It would be much cheaper than having to buy the amps separately as there is no need for all the expensive casing. In fact, just like Meridian did all those years ago, and various companies do now - Adam, ATC, PMC, Meridian, Linn..... Needing about 25 boxes and a few dozen wires (I know, it's an exaggeration, but you know what I mean) to get a full blown active system is rather bonkers - most people don't have the room and don't want their sitting room looking like a Hifi shop. Bung the amps in the bottom of the Ovator, Sopra or whatever, plug in a 272, 292, 572 or whatever, and off you go. 

Yes and no. This preference is saying that you want Naim to move away from seperates. Linn have done this. Exakt may be true hi-fi but it is about as much seperates as an iPod docking speaker with about as much room for upgrade manouverability.

While I can see the attraction for some to stay hifi but move away from seperates, it was this trend that ultimately led me to leave Linn.

I acknowledge that times have changed and things have moved on. But I do not see anything of late that has lessened the fundamental benefit of "seperates" over integrated.

• Upgradeability
• Interchangeability
• Not having all your eggs in one basket when something breaks

That said, I don't have an issue with Naim expanding their offering. But given the size of the company, I do worry about leaving the core behind which for me is made of analog NACs, offboard power supplies and active Xovers.

A streamer to match the Nait 5si most be released this year!

I'm all for separates. 
Putting a DAC or a DAC optional board, inside a NAC doesn't make the NAC an integrated. 

As someone said on another thread, a modular approach to phono and/or DAC could be exciting (like it was with the 62/72).

Also from that other thread thread, Naim should consider standardizing on the power supplies (at least for your Power Amps), to offer an easier upgrade path. Right now most of the upgrade money must be going to eBay dealers anyway.