552 DR First Impressions

Oh, and the seating position is quite sensitive, a change of 10/20cm back and forth  remarkably change presentation.

I also recently changed from this

to this

A 180cm wide sofa i moved in from another room, the old one was 205cm but more like a bed

Usually i  was sitting on the smaller chair facing it.

Regards

Roberto

The Strat (Fender) posted: 

...I am trying to convince myself that the 282 is where I should stop!

I think everyone with a 282 (unless they just recently bought it) feels this way.

It's the gateway drug of preamps. It's the one that really makes you think "Holy cow! A preamp can resolve this from a recording?!" Which, while amazing, starts to put ideas of Supercaps, 252s, 552s and maybe S1s in your head. Bank balances be damned.

I already am thinking of supercap, and got my 282 less than a year ago.

Rsch, it may be of course you don't like the 552.. but I think it more likely system or room matching.. I have heard 552s sounding mediocre in  systems and certainly not sounding right as well as outstanding 552 setups.. you should certainly be wary of the hyperbole often touted on the forum regarding the 552... it's not automatically better.. it just has the potential to be better... and really this goes for all the higher end NACs.

JN's advice above is good.. The 552 is wide bandwidth with a relatively strong high frequency presentation.. and it may just be over cooking your room with your speakers... Perhaps you can temporarily hang a few sheets in front of those boxes on the wall to see if there is much change... I am concerned about you saying by moving a small amount, the presentation significantly changes.. To me that says you have challanges with room reflections.. This won't help a 552 or most wide bandwidth NACs for that matter.

Simon

analogmusic posted:

I already am thinking of supercap, and got my 282 less than a year ago.

 

 

Analogmusic, of course your ears and system may be very different from mine... however I would only consider a SuperCapDR if you are going to get a 252 .. I found the 282 sounded relatively more natural and flowing with a HiCapDR albeit perhaps not as sharp at resolving detail.  I am told that with the  older non DR powersupplies things might be a little different and the SC provides more of a boost to the 282.

I had a HiCapDR and a fairly new pre owned SuperCapDR for my 282 and I ended up leaving my SuperCap boxed up until I later got my 252.

Simon

Thanks Simon, I will take your advice, I can't afford to upgrade to a 252.

However now that my 282 inputs are grounded, I got to hear what it is capable of, and it does sound quite energetic and "exuberant" with the 250 DR.

I removed the Powerline from the 250 DR and fitted it on the HCDR and it sounds better now, quite nicely balanced and sweet.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Rsch, it may be of course you don't like the 552.. but I think it more likely system or room matching.. I have heard 552s sounding mediocre in  systems and certainly not sounding right as well as outstanding 552 setups.. you should certainly be wary of the hyperbole often touted on the forum regarding the 552... it's not automatically better.. it just has the potential to be better... and really this goes for all the higher end NACs.

JN's advice above is good.. The 552 is wide bandwidth with a relatively strong high frequency presentation.. and it may just be over cooking your room with your speakers... Perhaps you can temporarily hang a few sheets in front of those boxes on the wall to see if there is much change... I am concerned about you saying by moving a small amount, the presentation significantly changes.. To me that says you have challanges with room reflections.. This won't help a 552 or most wide bandwidth NACs for that matter.

Simon

HI Simon,

I'm really aware that 552 brings more bandwith, information or call it like you want.

I think that your analysis is spot on. 

My room still suffer with some mid/high reflections, a better acoustics treatment would help.

Also i think that a 250DR or 300DR with SL loom would be ideal.

Btw i' m just returning  from a session with a couple of my favourite cd's and i i confess it was much

better than the other night, better mains, my mind more at rest who knows ?

I also played the last Morrisey "World is None Of..."  which with the 282 or XS i always found really unbeareble,

this time it was  much less so

Regards

Roberto

There is always a lot of psychology at play when you get a new bit of Hifi, especially when it is really expensive like the 552, and you can spend a lot of effort in looking for issues with its performance - the very act of looking for issues is what causes the issues. 

When I bought a 552 I already had a 300, and I knew from the first second that the 552 was a giant leap over the 252 that preceded it. It is much more lively than the 252 and you hear a lot more of what is happening in the music. 

When I had SL2s previously I first used them with a 250.2, which didn't seem to drive them properly, and I found that a 300 was much, much better. I now have another pair, which I use with a 250DR and they work really well with it. 

Pulling those two thoughts together, I believe a 300 is a better match for both the 552 and SL2 than your 250.2, so it may be worth seeing if you can try one. The 250DR is certainly fine with the SL2, but I've not heard it with a 552, though I can't see why it would be incompatible. It's a very different beast to the 250.2. 

I'd certainly look at the power amp before thinking about SL cables. That said, it still seems odd that you are not delighted with the 552, which may mean that there are issues with your room. Then again, if the 282 was ok, the 552 should be OK as well. With the SL2, the usual advice 'you may need to move your speakers' does not really apply. 

Sorry if this reply is a bit rambling.

I agree the 250.2 could be an issue and indeed room acoustics could be coming into play (in a bad way) with the introduction of the 552. But don't discount the possibility that the very transparent 552 could be highlighting issues somewhere else in the system that the 282 was simply unable to expose. Indeed there may be something wrong with the 552 itself or the way it has been set up.

I strongly recommend you get the dealer round to check the entire system and the way it has been set-up before you go trying to treat room acoustics which can be frustrating and often ultimately unsuccessful (physics is physics after all). The same dealer could also bring round a 250DR or even 300DR to see if the 250.2 is indeed the issue. If you are considering the expense of the 552, that is the least the dealer could do I would have thought.

One thing I have learnt with Naim (personally) is that "if it doesn't sound right, then something is wrong".

Trust your ears, and a good dealer should be able to get to the bottom of the problem

It could be cabling issue, speaker termination issue, grounding issue (where are you located? is your electric system connected to earth properly? Is the copper spike in good condition?)

Something is wrong somewhere, and time and effort will be needed to find out what is wrong. But once it is corrected, the system will sound better.

nigelb posted:

I strongly recommend you get the dealer round to check the entire system and the way it has been set-up 

Nigel,

I think that either Roberto or myself have a better knowledge of Naim and how to set it properly than any of the dealers I know of personally. That said, if we were living in the UK to could be a very good piece of advice.

(I didn't write this out of presumptuousness, but of plain experience).

M

This is from a thread called "grounding gremlins". 

For some time I have been complaining and asking advice about the treble harshness of my system to Naim, local dealers and my friends. I upgraded 3.5/hi/62/90 through to cdx/112/hi/150 looking to cure a top end graininess that made listening a real pain. I thought there was a problenm with my cdx. Blamed RF interference and was pretty cranky. I even brought in a ton of other manufacturers' equipment to try and solve the issue and tried other interconnects and other speaker wire. My wife has not been impressed, as you can imagine. I previously helped other Naimees here in SW Ontario with power issues and one dealer felt strongly that it was still a power issue even though I was running two dedicated circuits (one for the cdx and other for the amp).

A couple of nights ago I went down and looked at the power panel and examined the grounding clamp. The pictures you see (thanks, Mike) are the appalling condition of the connector that attaches the panel to the water pipe and provides the house ground (standard electrical code where metal water pipes are used). I cleaned up the severe oxidation on the pipe itelf and replaced the clamp with a new copper one. Well, that was the solution not only to the treble issue, but also some other things that I had no idea were there, as I was fixated on the treble harshness.

Perhaps the system is a bit 'intense' now but truly unbelievable. Pinpoint location of instruments, a gigantic soundstage, incredible system 'blackness' and more and better bass than I have ever had. Every detail is there but without the harshness. I had no idea that
Naim equipment could sound like this.
My diagnosis is that the ground clamp severe oxidation caused a significant increase in the house ground resistance compared to the input neutral. This resulted in a 'neutral current' whose symptoms in the Naim gear included the graininess, background noise, susceptibility to RF, bass shyness and daily variability in the system. Perhaps this is not an issue where 220V is used, but after this experience, a high quality ground is essential to the health of your Naim system (perhaps of your sanity, as well).

Why I didn't figure this out before is just plain doofusness. I guess you'd better get the basics right before wasting time on the ancillaries.

Massimo Bertola posted:

nigelb posted:

I strongly recommend you get the dealer round to check the entire system and the way it has been set-up 

Nigel,

I think that either Roberto or myself have a better knowledge of Naim and how to set it properly than any of the dealers I know of personally. That said, if we were living in the UK to could be a very good piece of advice.

(I didn't write this out of presumptuousness, but of plain experience).

M

Oh, OK, I understand. Can the dealer at least provide a 250DR or 300DR to at least test out the 250.2 issue theory? I believe you originally planned to upgrade to a 252 and the dealer sprang the 552 on you. If he wants you to spend considerably more than you had planned then he needs to do his utmost to demonstrate the full (well near full) potential of the 552.

If the 250DR or 300DR makes the 552 sing and you can't afford to upgrade pre and power amps at present then you may consider sticking with the 282 for now and upgrade the power amp first and leave the pre amp till later. I know from personal experience that going from 250.2 to 250DR with a 282 is a huge step up. Or possibly go to a 300DR now with a view to going to a 252 or secondhand 552 later on.

Just a thought.

When i went from 252/300 to a 552/300 the difference was laughable, huge, and not even remotely close. Not a DR or SL in sight.

Hungryhalibut posted:

There is always a lot of psychology at play when you get a new bit of Hifi, especially when it is really expensive like the 552, and you can spend a lot of effort in looking for issues with its performance - the very act of looking for issues is what causes the issues. 

 

 

I always thought it was the other way round - not people looking for issues, but looking to justify their purchase.

That leads to a commonly reported perception: if not immediately hearing a beneficial difference,  the common assertion is that the sound improved over time as the equipment 'burnt in' or equivalent, whereas the reality more often is that the listener is the component that 'burnt in' over time, getting used to the new sound (and justifying the purchase by convincing themselves it is better). (That's not to say, of course, that it isn't actually a better sound - it may or may not be - though clearly sometimes isn't obviously so to the listener at first hearing at home.) 

Massimo Bertola posted:

nigelb posted:

I strongly recommend you get the dealer round to check the entire system and the way it has been set-up 

Nigel,

I think that either Roberto or myself have a better knowledge of Naim and how to set it properly than any of the dealers I know of personally. That said, if we were living in the UK to could be a very good piece of advice.

(I didn't write this out of presumptuousness, but of plain experience).

M

A useful reminder, Max. We here in the UK are rather spoilt with the number and expertise of Naim dealers and sometimes presume everyone enjoys such dealer support.  

Mike

Thank you for your replies, I' m out for lunch now, l'll with you later.

R.

Hi Roberto, I'm Alessandro ( i'm italian) .. Yesterday You asked me something about the preamplifier and the my demo  nap 300 DR in an another thread

Is it possible contact you via  private e-mail just for some curiosity?

I hope I'm not violating the forum rules.

Regards

Alessandro

Nigel, Gary,

I too - without having ever heard one - think that a 300 could be a good solution. But Roberto, in my opinion, now finds himself at a complex junction where he wants to settle things for the best possible sound but is doubtful about where to look at. And since it's his money, he has to listen and decide for himself. With time and ease.

About dealers: there are two, in my 'area' (let's say within a 40 minutes drive radius, not counting Milano which is a different type of market) who sell Naim, and in both cases I suspect that neither was in love with the brand to begin with, but started selling it because it's a renown name in audio and you never can tell... Funny thing is, I happen to also know a few audiophiles in the same area too, and there seems to be more interest in Naim now, here, than there was a few years ago and more than the dealers esteem. They are, in my opinion, underrating the brand; but, on the other hand, if you sell in one afternoon D'Agostino amps and Wilson speakers for, say, €60/70,000, what exactly should be the incentive to use time and breath selling a SuperUniti for €6,000? Audio culture? In audio stores?

A cultivated, sincere and competent audio dealer is bliss; a typical one, quicksands for your money. I've spent enough time in national audio stores to have learned that they want to sell:

a) what they have the largest profit margins on

b) what aurally and conceptually pleases the wealthiest customers most

c) what sounds best to their ears.

I also think that some of them would sell Naim with more enthusiasm if it costed two, three times as much; there seems to be this paradox: people interested in Naim have good musical taste, hence not much money - or, rather, sorry: contextually not much money - so the brand, here, is often relegated to second-choice customers, while big spenders are entertained with 6-figures audio and have no chance to buy better for less. One of the plagues of being wealthy I suppose.

M

MDS posted:

We here in the UK are rather spoilt with the number and expertise of Naim dealers   

Mike

In a way, I am too.

Max

Massimo Bertola posted:

..... - so the [Naim] brand, here, is often relegated to second-choice customers, while big spenders are entertained with 6-figures audio and have no chance to buy better for less.

Seems Milano is crying out for a Statement dealer, or two. Not that this helps Roberto.

Chris

(Plain brown envelope in the usual place please Naim, cheers).

My dealer has been offered to be Italy's exclusive Statement retailer months ago, but he so far declined... I assume he must be afraid to keep such a costly set in house. Understandable, for one who has at least €400,000 worth of Wilson and Magico in store. But I don't mean to judge him: he has, so far, proved to be right in his choices and has always been a gentleman with me and most patient with difficult customers. He is a very good seller, but happens to love the wrong things...

M

Massimo Bertola posted:

Nigel, Gary,

I too - without having ever heard one - think that a 300 could be a good solution. But Roberto, in my opinion, now finds himself at a complex junction where he wants to settle things for the best possible sound but is doubtful about where to look at. And since it's his money, he has to listen and decide for himself. With time and ease.

About dealers: there are two, in my 'area' (let's say within a 40 minutes drive radius, not counting Milano which is a different type of market) who sell Naim, and in both cases I suspect that neither was in love with the brand to begin with, but started selling it because it's a renown name in audio and you never can tell... Funny thing is, I happen to also know a few audiophiles in the same area too, and there seems to be more interest in Naim now, here, than there was a few years ago and more than the dealers esteem. They are, in my opinion, underrating the brand; but, on the other hand, if you sell in one afternoon D'Agostino amps and Wilson speakers for, say, €60/70,000, what exactly should be the incentive to use time and breath selling a SuperUniti for €6,000? Audio culture? In audio stores?

A cultivated, sincere and competent audio dealer is bliss; a typical one, quicksands for your money. I've spent enough time in national audio stores to have learned that they want to sell:

a) what they have the largest profit margins on

b) what aurally and conceptually pleases the wealthiest customers most

c) what sounds best to their ears.

I also think that some of them would sell Naim with more enthusiasm if it costed two, three times as much; there seems to be this paradox: people interested in Naim have good musical taste, hence not much money - or, rather, sorry: contextually not much money - so the brand, here, is often relegated to second-choice customers, while big spenders are entertained with 6-figures audio and have no chance to buy better for less. One of the plagues of being wealthy I suppose.

M

 very intereting post Massimo... 

i hope Naim can stay true to their values by continuing to produce products on performance primarily and not (just) price. but of course economic realities may dictate otherwise. the problem with manufacturing to a price -- especially high end -- is that you then have to make the component 'look' the part -- i.e. look "expensive" -- and sometimes in artificial ways.

i will never forget an exchange between a couple one when i was wandering aound in Egdware road looking at Hifi kit. Said the girl "i prefer that amp with bigger meters and lift handles as it looks more up mkt"

well..

enjoy

ken

Few years ago i had a 552demo for a long week.The source was hdx + n-dac + xps-2 and the power-amp Nap 250-2, the speakers Totem Forest. It was much better than my Nac 282 + hi-cap-2 (now in DR version), but , no so better to justify the difference of money (in my condition). Since yesterday i have a new 300dr instead of the 250 and this upgrade seems more significant.

a long time ago, i experienced a 552 demo that left me wondering what the fuss was about. but i also recollect similarly misleading demos first time i was looking at Aro arm. well, "the rest is history" as they say, because i own Aro arm (i believe i may be one of the very early adopters) and a 552 and these work extremely well -- in fact i forget about them...

enjoy

ken