Super Lumina Speaker Cable. More Music?

my system sounds like it has taken another notch up in performance tonite. i noticed this when i played a few tunes on the NDS earlier. i am hearing even more musical lines -- and on the right material -- its really kicking ass.

now, i havent changed anything substantial for sometime -- other than replace the std cable from NAS to switch with a meicord --  really doubt this has anything to do with it as the changes are of a more fundamental nature and seems to be of teh SL type. No, i havent installed any more SL wire.

my suspicion is that the snaxo SL is undergoing a second phase of run in -- and this is after about 1.5 months from install -- when it took about about week to sound 'less worrying'.

if my suspicion in right, i wouldnt be surprised if there is even a 3rd and subsequent minor phases?

or maybe this is just the result of a next door neighbour or someone around the neighbourhood having switched off some heavy mains polluter 

sorry a bit off topic perhaps -- but just thought this is probably an SL effect i am hearing tonite and decided to share...

enjoy

ken

ken - perhaps you just had a good day? 

The SL cables take months to run-in and the improvements appear in jumps, so not surprised.

If it has only been 6 weeks into run-in it has loads to come yet!

DB,

Chris Dolan posted:

ken - perhaps you just had a good day? 

i doubt it Chris. the changes are a bit too fundamental as i say. i will monitor over the next few weeks. i dont yet have SL speaker cables and DIN XLR -- and my 500 amps are not yet DR'd.

enjoy

ken

Darke Bear posted:

The SL cables take months to run-in and the improvements appear in jumps, so not surprised.

If it has only been 6 weeks into run-in it has loads to come yet!

DB,

interesting DB.

its important emphasize that prior to the step change today -- the system was sounding fine, so this is as if the system is going through a long run-in to sound any good. as i say, 1st step change was after about about a couple of weeks. This is a second one, or so it seems.

Its the bass that has now acquired more body, tune and authenticity (now i am talking gibberish again ) -- and the change seems quite emphatic.

enjoy...

ken

My Din to XLR is about six weeks old now, and the sound seems to have changed over the last couple of days - deep bass has appeared that I didn't know the SL2s could produce. It's a fascinating process, to be sure. 

ken - do you use a benchmark piece of music to judge the improvement on run in that you always go back to?

yes, i guess i could say i have a few test tracks -- but i tend to use these when i feel something is wrong and i want to pint it dow. otherwise, i tend to play huge randomised playlists while i am working. the thing that caught my interest tonite is Santana's "Black Magic Woman" -- i stopped what i was doing and drew my chair further back away from the speakers to listen properly. a few hours later, i was still playing some tunes -- each one with its own surprise -- the clarity and emotion on Mary Gauthier's "Last of Hobo Kings" !! thats when i posted...

enjoy

ken

Hungryhalibut posted:

My Din to XLR is about six weeks old now, and the sound seems to have changed over the last couple of days - deep bass has appeared that I didn't know the SL2s could produce. It's a fascinating process, to be sure. 

perhaps this run-in does it go in phases? what you describe sounds familiar in my humbler SL set up 

yes, its fascinating isnt it...!

enjoy

ken

The sound should get smoother and (hard to find words) more 'silky' HF as more strands of detailing are heard presented more naturally. The mid-band for voice really is superb on the SL cables and continues to open-out and clarify over time giving greater realism and subtlety in singing - more emotional and insightful. The bass-end just gradually fills-out and seems to dig deeper.

I find there are a a series of small jumps in performance over time, with periods in between where it remains more or less stable.

Yes - on top of all that there is your own mood and the mains quality - but you notice the trend over time and also the peak-experiences are there where they were not before.

All good!

...as an aside - the low bass filling-out as they run-in does mean that if you have a problem in the system install it will become overbearing and spoil the timing. But it can be sorted with some attention to detail.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

The sound should get smoother and (hard to find words) more 'silky' HF as more strands of detailing are heard presented more naturally. The mid-band for voice really is superb on the SL cables and continues to open-out and clarify over time giving greater realism and subtlety in singing - more emotional and insightful. The bass-end just gradually fills-out and seems to dig deeper.

I find there are a a series of small jumps in performance over time, with periods in between where it remains more or less stable.

Yes - on top of all that there is your own mood and the mains quality - but you notice the trend over time and also the peak-experiences are there where they were not before.

All good!

...as an aside - the low bass filling-out as they run-in does mean that if you have a problem in the system install it will become overbearing and spoil the timing. But it can be sorted with some attention to detail.

DB.

sometimes it can be hard to think we are only talking about mere hifi, not 'starship enterprise'  but such is the nature of our hobby -- fortunately for me, things seem to be working without much ado -- this is one of the reasons why i havent made much progress to try a new ethernet wire that i bought.

re: your aside -- i repeat what has been said here many times. the reason why SL may not work in some system may not be anything to do with "attention to detail" as you put it. It could be all sorts of other issues... including that the cable may be somehow incompatible...

enjoy

ken

Ken, In case the Meicord has had some influence on the improved SQ, why don't you really complicate things and put the AQ Cinnamon between the NDS and switch if a 'loose' fitting is easily accomplished and see if anything (else) changes?

nigelb posted:

Ken, In case the Meicord has had some influence on the improved SQ, why don't you really complicate things and put the AQ Cinnamon between the NDS and switch if a 'loose' fitting is easily accomplished and see if anything (else) changes?

interesting thought. i dont believe the Meicord is responsible for what i am hearing since the effect is across sources -- i also played vinyl -- and the NAT01 is also sounding rather good.

i think the next experiment -- when i get the chance -- is to try the meicord between switch and NDS -- then i will have it on NAS-switch and switch to NDS. when i get around to this, i will report on the other thread. :-) thanks for all your suggestions is that thread by the way... i dont want to pollute this one with my mad experiments on ethernet cables :-)

enjoy

ken

Yes, sorry Ken, I was getting my threads mixed up. Old age you know. Keep forgetting how forgetful I am!

I would be interested to hear what you put this recent leap in SQ down to. Hopefully it is something cheap you have done and we can replicate it. Who am I kidding!

Cheers

Nigel

if my explanation of whats going on with my system is correct, then this experience emphasizes how important it is to stay with one configuration long enough for it to settle down completely. i am not suggesting for one minute that the system will sound bad before this -- but just that when it settles down, then you will experience optimum performance. 

i had actually entertained the idea of getting my 500s DRd early this year (but shortage of funds threw that plan out thru the window)-- but in fact just as well really -- for I now believe that would have been a mistake at this stage. 

the next upgrade, whatever it is, will require that (a) system is fully settled,in 'steady state' and these incremental phases are no longer evident, and (b) i have the necessary funds. I am happier now with this way forward...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

re: your aside -- i repeat what has been said here many times. the reason why SL may not work in some system may not be anything to do with "attention to detail" as you put it. It could be all sorts of other issues... including that the cable may be somehow incompatible...

enjoy

ken

I agree. I suppose I'm really looking at it from the perspective of what I'm finding in my own system. For a number of reasons I now have a lot more quality LF power manifesting through my system that the SL cable wants to let do its thing.

I have found that the Power Amplifier mains transformers when stacked using only the standard Fraim level introduce a lot of 'clouding' and over-fullness to the bass - and elsewhere. In the three-way Active system you have more of this to deal with than Passive. I experimented and found putting either an empty shelf or using a medium Fraim level instead of the standard level height did phenomenal wonders for my system.

To put it in context, for a tenth of the cost of DR upgrade for my 500 I get, to my ears two or three times the effect of the DR upgrade. I have acted accordingly and I'm gradually upgrading my Fraim stack and deferring my DR upgrade until later, as the overall lift in quality means it can wait a bit.

That the power supplies have this much effect surprised me - and pleased me when I saw how to fix it and what the result is. To be clear - Naim should try this and recommend it for their Active customers on SQ alone - although I admit it is not domestically what many will want.

You will see the same applies to the twin 555PS for the source. For this it really woke-up the performance in a big way - far more detail and engagement.
I tried it in a friend's passive 555-2x555PS-552-500 system and he was amazed at how a bass line that he knew well that always went 'du-duh' now went 'du-dududuh' but you get the idea.

For the Power Amp Power Supplies it is a much bigger sound - a huge increase in dynamic range and clean power-handling.

So this is what I meant by 'attention to detail' - in my case. The SL cable just revealed the problem and now it is identified and addressed somewhat, the performance is at a much higher level.

The above picture was an experiment I ran for a few weeks, but I want to get rid of the empty levels, as I don't always get on with them, but did not have enough Medium fraim. Below is my present configuration, where I'm stacking the two bass power supplies close, but separating the others with medium. Top to bottom it is Supercap PS (for Snaxo) - 500PS (for BMR) - 500PS (for bass 1)- 500PS (for bass 2). This gives a stonking performance, but I want to separate the lower two bass supplies a bit more, as when I did tha tbefore it really opened-up the soundstage and freed-up everything, so I will try that again soon.

By comparison the stack of three 500PS with Supercap atop all on the smallest standard Fraim levels was closed-in and rather oppressive. Giving the transformers more space seems to greaty reduce what sounds to me like unwelcome interaction and lowers distortion.

DB.

Hello DB, thanks for sharing. With equipment as sensitive as this, everything matters and makes a noticeable difference, so then it becomes a question of choices between improvements...maybe I need to widen my view and take in something new.

So far I am going by the rule that the sensitive "source boxes" cdp 555 and nac 552 are the ones I want to protect from interferences so I place each of them on a top shelf, side by side, with an empty shelf below. That makes 2 fraim racks, with the nac 552 sitting on top of the left one (front of the listening position) and the cdp on the right one (which is one level higher)

On the left rack then I have the nac552, an empty shelf, the nac 552 ps, and then on the bottom level with a high fraim shelf (leaving space on top) the nap 500.

On the right rack (which is one level higher) I have on top the 555cdp, and empty shelf, then 3 ps going down, the 500ps, the CDP Ps2 (output/input), the CDP Ps1(output/input), and finally bottom level an Adept response power center connected to the wall outlet.

Is there anything I would benefit trying to improve SQ? Thanks for your thought/suggestions

Nestor

its good of you to post some pics DB -- its great to see such a fab system -- and the Statement pre towering over it :-)

your attention to detail is something i would probably never manage -- partly laziness -- but also i would probably get confused in the process because there are just so many combinations and therefore possible configurations! but you appear to have nailed down what works in your system. i do hope though that you do enjoy your music and that the config. optimisation hasnt taken you prisoner :-)

J.N. kindly invited me to the last listening session you had with him -- unfortunately i could not make it due to work -- but one of these days -- when its a bit warmer :-)

enjoy

ken

nestor burma posted:

Hello DB, thanks for sharing. With equipment as sensitive as this, everything matters and makes a noticeable difference, so then it becomes a question of choices between improvements...maybe I need to widen my view and take in something new....

What you can try is to keep the 'Brawn' and Brain' equipment in their own separate stacks.

'Brain' stack:
So Have one stack with 555 top, gap level, 552 on the tall level, 500 on a standard level and empty base.
The reason for the empty levels is that the 500 works better not being on the lowest shelf - it should sound faster with better bass dynamics. Also the 555 likes to have some space between it and the 552 Pre.

'Brawn Stack'
This contains anything with a transformer.
So you put the 500PS on the lowest base level (it performs best there from my testing with two systems so far).
then place an empty shelf between it and the 552PS and then an empty shelf and the other supplies.

The empty shelves can be removed if Medium levels are used, as these save some space and cost and actually sound better - but use what you have.

So separate the transformer-containing boxes into one stack and allow space between each item, especially the ones with the largest transformers as well.

All of this is to extract the best from what you already have if you are inclined to try. All my posts are on that theme, but I appreciate that what it looks like matters a lot more than performance for some, so they have to decide on what compromises, if any, to make towards that - I respect that.

DB.

ken c posted:

its good of you to post some pics DB -...I do hope though that you do enjoy your music and that the config. optimisation hasn't taken you prisoner :-)

ken

I get frustrated if I know something is not performing at its best and the only thing in the way is effort on my part - the way I was 'wired' so rather than fight it I find experimentation and learning to be the outlet.

I have had many frustrating learning situations, like when I re-stacked my system a couple of years ago to make it look neater, it took hours - and it sounded like I'd broken something after! So I spent hours putting it all back the way it started, ready to call the Dealer that my tweeters had somehow got damaged (that was what it sounded like), only to find all was well again when it was back as it was. This led me to discover the Supercap PS for the Snaxo is very critical on where it is placed and does not like being sandwiched close and between the other big transformer supplies.

That eventually led me a year or so later to formally experiment with the sensitivity of the supplies. There is a view that, I had also shared, that it did not matter where they were placed as much as with the other boxes, but I have found them in many ways more sensitive to placement.

I'm Retired so I have lots of time now to both play hours of music a day and 'play'.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:.

'Brain' stack:
So Have one stack with 555 top, gap level, 552 on the tall level, 500 on a standard level and empty base.
The reason for the empty levels is that the 500 works better not being on the lowest shelf - it should sound faster with better bass dynamics. Also the 555 likes to have some space between it and the 552 Pre.

'Brawn Stack'
This contains anything with a transformer.
So you put the 500PS on the lowest base level (it performs best there from my testing with two systems so far).
then place an empty shelf between it and the 552PS and then an empty shelf and the other supplies.

DB, without the luxury of space for extra/larger levels, would you recommend:

SC(SNAXO), 555PS, 552PS, 300PS (mid), 500PS(hi), 500PS(low)

Not sure if the alignment to each frequency determines an optimal position?

On the other stack it would be:

555, 552, SNAXO, 300, 500, 500

Trial is the only way to determine the answer - I will offer some suggestions based on my experience, but I gained most of that through making mistakes and then thinking-through what I had actually done and then experimenting again.

In a 3-way active set-up, as we both have, with revealing full-range speakers - you will hear everything you get right or wrong!

The 500PS is the larger supply transformer, so keeping these from others and each-other will be good, when possible.

So I'd try (top to bottom) 552, SC(snaxo) 555, 500, 300, 500.  [ or 552, SC(snaxo) 500, 555, 300, 500 ]

The 552PS  needs to have most space, then the SC(for Snaxo). You may find swapping these over in the stack will make clear what is best.
The 555 supply is noisiest and needs to be clear of others - you may find lowering that more helps.
The reason for placing the 300PS between the two 500PS is that may keep these better apart - the Bass 5--PS will be doing more than the HF one so place that at the bottom. Also it seems the Bass 500PS like to be at the bottom.

The other stack order is fine as you have it - but re-order items lower in the stack if it helps cable-dressing. If when you are finished the build all the Burndies are clear of other cables, especially the speaker leads, and also when you give them a little poke they seem free to move, rather than be stiff, then you will get best results. This latter point is actually worth the effort to get right, as it can make the whole thing go flat if the Burndies touch the floor especially.

DB.

thanks DB -- its good to have you here 

enjoy your music now...

ken

Thanks DB.  I see a rebuild coming on.  Possibly something to do whilst I wait for my SNAXO to be returned from Salisbury.  

I wonder how far down I can move the 555PS.  I am also thinking I might be better to feed the higher 500 from the lower 500PS to keep cables from the floor (if I can also then stop them crossing).  Hmm...

I guess if we are done with stacking, we may get back to SL. I am now 1 week or so into the SL burn in. Not exactly as I had to have 3 days out due to prior commitments. I guess I have only about 10 hours plus on the cables so far. I have been reading forum posts but have to keep pausing and looking up where the music is coming from. What I am hearing is much more detail and realism from the music. Mainly listening to CDs on CDS3. For now, the only down side is a slightly harsh edge which for me is like I am spinning on a CDX2!

From posts so far, this is to be expected. I love the realism of the instruments. I am just waiting for the overall presentation to settle down and smooth off those edges. Even should this not occur, I cannot imagine reverting to A5.

Dave