From SN to what? In search of just one parameter.

Oh dear   Such a post is going to invoke a myriad of possibly diverging comment. I appear to have owned an unhealthy number of NAC/NAP combinations over recent years, but never owned a SN, just listened to it and its newer cousin elsewhere..

My subjective views for what they are worth on various classic series NAC/NAP combos..

202/HiCap -> 200:  a little uninspiring and shut in. A slight lower mid bloom

202/HiCapDR -> 200: significantly improved on above. Bloom gone and more insightful, but ultimately lacking a little vigour

202/HiCapDR -> 250.2: a car crash. Leaden and ponderous. Best avoided.

282/HiCapDR -> 200: enjoyable and energetic.. Occasionally drifting into the brighter side of neutral. Starts to dig out musical enjoyment that was only hinted at with 202

282/HiCapDR -> 250.2: Nice, richer balance, and timbres and subtle shading in the music become apparent. Very dynamic. I could comftably live with this. Very enjoyable.

282/SuperCapDR -> 250.2: musically not much advancement on the above... but seems to sometimes highlight excessive detail and perhaps edges to sounding a tad clinical.

252/SuperCapDR -> 250.2: musically divine. Detail, groove, musical vigour, shading and timbres all in natural proportions. The first amp that breaks them source first rule, makes just about any source regardless of quality sound enjoyable and/or interesting.. Just a tad less dynamic than  282 but ultimately better proportioned. My journey has stopped/paused here.. upgrade itch currently dispelled.

Simon,

thanks very much – this is a clear, informative and first-hand report that answers 95% of my questions.

I don't think I have much more to ask, so the myriad of possibly diverging comments is now not strictly necessary.

Best

Max

Agree generally with Simon, not that I've heard some of those combinations ..... the 202/200 is not an improvement on the SN , no doubt budget dictates, but a step up would have to be a 250/282/Hicap and of course DR if possible...

Of the combinations Simon mentions, I've owned a 202, Hicap, 200, and a 252, Supercap, 250.2. None of these were DR versions. I enjoyed the former very much; it was lively and very enjoyable. In contrast, I found the latter very dull and uninteresting. The 252/300 combination that followed the 252/250.2 was much better, with more life and involvement. 

I think, Max, that you would be unwise to make a decision based on people's views on here, including Simon's and of course, mine. 

I've never seriously listened to the Supernait or Supernait 2, but the general view seems to be that they are at least as good as a 202/200. 

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to try the 282 with your Hicap, either with a 200 or - much better, but more expensive - a 250DR. 

Another alternative is to try the 272 - it's at around 282 level and would give you Internet radio, FM if you want it, and access to streamed music should you want to go there. 

Hi Max,

I'm anxious that you are giving too much weight to my experience with a Nac282.  Funds permitting, I'd love to try one again sometime, this time powered by my HC-DR and not my Nap200.

Best, C.

Edit: and a Nac282 with your HC-DR and the power section of your SN makes a possible first step for you...

Nigel,

I agree that it's not a good idea to make a decision based on people's views here; I won't. I asked for idle thoughts and appreciated the clarity of Simon's answer, while acknowledging that his ears, room and taste are three important variables.

My recollection of 202/HC/NAPSC/200 is, like yours, of a lively and engaging amp; so I pay Simon's opposite view due attention. You and Wenger both think that 202/200 is not necessarily better than a SN, and that answers the remaining 5% of my questions. My recollection of the 202/200, though, and the current experience of my second SN suggest that the former was a little more open and lively than the latter. Simon, diverging comments have already begun to appear...

I know (because I happen to read the company's brochures, sometimes) that a 202 is not much more than an 'optimised' 122x, but it is the 'natural' partner of the 200 so that is why I considered it. My nose and my guts probably say 282/200 - I sometimes find the 250.2 a little too 'mature' - but my original fear was that it could be not very different, in timbral terms, from my current amp. Hence my doubts.

As for the 272, I have tried as best as I could but I still can't bring myself to want anything else in the system than a CDP, amp and speakers, so streaming is not an option for now, as are Radios.

Thanks again.

Mike,

your reply sums up pretty well my thoughts and why I am still at SN.. Thanks, it completes a series of impressions perfectly. Common point, so far, is that the 202 is not a worthwhile step up from the SN.

I must add that my room is balanced and sounds ok but I have to keep the SBLs on the short wall firing across the long one, and that my Vertere cables, albeit contributing to richness, organicity and natural voicing haven't helped in the direction of that certain je ne sais quoi of sharpness my 63-years old ears are still sometimes looking for..

Chris,

Roberto's first impressions with his 282 were similar to yours; in time, though, he told me the system had gained pretty much everything, from lucidity to dynamics to body; I do not doubt of the 282's qualities, I only fear they could not blend perfectly into my system, already sometimes a little 'full'. Yet, I think a 282 is the only viable preamp for me in economical terms now. And that explains my impasse, and the questions.

I am not after direct suggestions. I welcome and value what I called idle thought. Thanks to all. M

Mike,

I've finally taken a look at your profile: a very interesting system, full of custom solutions and close to a certain idea I have myself of the gear.. Safe perhaps that I still use 'house' PSUs.. ;-). I am struck by the self designed and built speakers; next time I am in Oxfordshire, I'd like to call and have a listen if possible. But I must first pass in Southampton, where a friend deserves a visit..

Sarete i benvenuti Max,   send me an e-mail - in profile - & I will post you a preview

Acoustic memory can be faulty of course but my memory of my CD5x/202/hi/napsc /150x are very positive. I sometimes reflect upon whether I should have stayed there, but then I'm probably associating life events with the various upgrades and the 202 phase was a positive time generally. 

Obviously one has to take source into account. When I was at 202/hi/napsc/250(olive) with the CD5x there was certainly some bloat or thicknesses/ heaviness (how does one describe these?) which was dispelled once the CDX2 arrived.

I do find Naim pricing is a pretty good indication of their perceived quality, this puts 202/200 above SN so I'd caution presuming it won't sound better, I'd be very surprised if it didn't  

SJB

Hi Max , 

I can't comment on any pre / power combinations as I've "only" reached SN2 level but I'm going through a similar thought process as you . I thinking choosing the power amp may be quite easy with the recent DR updates . I'm going to try a 250DR at home in the next month , there are positive reports on here of the SN2/250DR combination and I'm sure it would be the same with the original . In terms of the Pre I'm looking at least 282 level but can't help thinking that there may be something new around the corner as the Statement trickle down continues , if the 250DR adds to things sufficiently there will be no problem in waiting to see what turns up . 

Just my thoughts .

Peter,

Trying at home is smart. Amps are affected by the loads (cable/speakers/room/ears:setup) they are dealing with and should be subjectively evaluated by one in a complete system context IMO.

Brilliant posted:

Trying at home is smart. Amps are affected by the loads (cable/speakers/room/ears:setup) they are dealing with and should be subjectively evaluated by one in a complete system context IMO.

The only way.

Max,

the Supernait had a pre-amp section that was based on 282 circuit but done in SMD rather than through-hole.  All else being the same, through-hole sounds better than SMD when used in analog circuits, however, SMD allows a 282 circuit to fit in a much smaller space.  No, it didn't sound as good as a NAC282, or even a NAC202, but it was great for an integrated amp of its size and power. To fit a through-hole pre-amp in the same space would have resulted in a greater compromise, so I'm told.  I was also told that the power amp was effectively a beefed up version of the 5i, although that may be selling it too short - think of it as a hybrid, taking elements from the 5i and NAP200.

If you're looking for clearer, a better pre-amp and a superior power amp, then I'd say that you'll get that with something like a NAC202, NAPSC and NAP200 (maybe the more so with a NAP200DR) - clearer, leaner, more agile.  However, it may not be a big enough jump.  In which case, you're looking at a favourite combo of mine, the two box (OK, two and a bit box with the NAPSC) NAC282 and NAP200.  Again, a NAP200DR may well take it even further - I haven't heard one yet.

Hiya Max,

You asked for idle thoughts, so here's mine: please consider getting a Sonos and plugging it into the DAC on your SN. It opens up a world of great radio stations (you also get a free trial of Deezer Elite lossless streaming) and has made a meaningful improvement to the music programming here at Chez Joe. We listen to streaming radio nearly every night -- I've become kind of addicted to FIP Paris, which is just fantastic.

So much so, in fact, that I'm rethinking my upgrade plans. Like you, I was considering a 282/power combo when I move on from my current SN/Hicap, but now I'm thinking that an NDX or 272 might be the better option. (That is, when my bank account recovers from the LP12/Aro/Armageddon my dealer is building for me as we speak!)

All the best,

Joe

Hi all, a lot of idles thoughts and aimed impressions, thanks.

Joe,

I perfectly understand the pleasure of many Internet Radios: I used to have a Squeezebox plugged into the SN's DAC. I too have often considered a slight 'shift' in direction as far as source was concerned, but I haven't been able to move from pure CDP so far.. If I trusted HardDisks and the idea of a computer as a hifi source didn't sound strange to a hifi snob like me, an NDX would be my first choice.

Richard,

thanks, now my ideas on the SN are clearer. When you mention 282/200 as a favourite two box (and half) solution, do you mean without any *cap? Because I have a HCDR – it took me five or six HiCaps across 30 years to find the perfect PSU, and now I'd hate to put it in a drawer...

M.

A Hicap DR will make it even better. 

(I have unplugged the SN, dusted it, touched a couple of infinitesimal notches on one corner with a black pen, sprayed it with a good cleaner and finished it with a cloth. Rejuvenated, gone back in place, all plugs carefully plugged in, turned on again it sounds excellent. Perhaps because of this brilliant recording:

or perhaps because it is a very good amp, it's even more difficult to imagine an upgrade now than it was when I first posted.

M.)

Dunbarton Oaks. I am off to Cheltenham Town Hall to listen to this next Friday!

Great Music!

Hi Max!

Best wishes from George

Max, a Hicap DR would make even better, but then it becomes a three and a bit piece amp.  If that's ok with you, then all is good.

It's ok with me.. As some say here, if there's place for three at a table, there's place for four - or something on these lines!

Massimo Bertola posted:

I essentially want a clearer, more open sound; I am not after bass, power, grip; I don't want to lose definition; I am only after that certain clarity and sharpness I remember I had with 202/200.

Hi Max,

A not so idle thought... if you can forego the requirement for a separate pre and power amp, and a remote control, and if you're willing to look beyond Naim, I feel confident that the Sonneteer Alabaster would do the trick. You'll get clarity, open sound, grip and an amp that always maintains the listener's focus on the music and not on the sound. Beguiling and addictive in the best possible way. No HiCap required.

Jan

Max, even though a 202/HCDR/200 is going to give you some more resolution and drive compared to your current SN1/HCDR, it is more of a sidestep move and not worth changing IMHO. I too suggest you give the 282 another listen. I have very fond memories of the 282/HC2/200 combo. It really is a lovely pre/power combination and your HCDR is only going to make it sound even better. Its impact when partnered with a SN1 is nice but add a HC to a 282 and the jump in improvement really is on an entirely different level. I'd go so far as to say an external PSU is almost obligatory with the 282 because powering it straight from a 200 leaves you missing so much. The 200 is a sweet amp and while the 250.2 may be better in many ways, it also sounds rather different. In some ways I somewhat missed the 200's lean and crisp sonic signature after moving up. If I were you, I'd listen to a 282/HCDR/200 to start off with. If budget allows, try a 250DR as well. Both combinations will let your CDS3 shine and should leave you rather chuffed.

Enjoy your auditions.

Best

tp 

282/HCDR/200 is a very nice amp and I can understand why Richard likes it, as I love this combo

282/HCDR/250DR is much better and one combo that you could easily live with permanently  as S-i-S stated. 

202/HCDR/200 is also good, I feel it is better than SN. Music flows more naturally