From SN to what? In search of just one parameter.

GraemeH posted:

"...close to how HiFi should sound just before the dividing line beyond which the system tries to substitute for reality."

Very acute observation Max.

G

 

Lest we forget, that dividing line is a slippery beast that haunts us all.

mackb3 posted:

SMAUG,

I used grainy describe the difference between the SN1 and 2 regarding improved noise floor with the SN2. The type of music I noticed it most was classical. Adding a HICAP improved it but more so on the SN2. Probably the DR rail in the SN2 and removal of the DAC all contribute. I did hear slightly better boogie-factor in the SN1 but SN2 is better defined and a clearer window to the music. Both are excellent but now I have the 282/250.2 and at a different level. Soon to upgrade the 250.2 to DR.

Hope this helps.

Not realy no  While i can relate to the noise floor issue, it don't believe this contributes to a grainy sound. If that assumption is wrong then I apologise.

I do not experience more noise from my supernait than I did from my Nait 5i2, I do sometimes experience a grainy texture to vocals with the Snait of which I wasn't aware with the Nait 5i2.

Other than that. It's a great piece of equipment with loads of grip on the speakers.

SMUG,

Let me back up a bit. 1996 my Naim journey began with a Rotel CD 955CD/LP12/Nait3r/Intro II's...2011 SN1/CD5XS...2013 SN2/Rega RP10/NDX/NDAC...2015 (see profile). Every iteration improved emotion, clarity, detail. Occasionally, I pull out the Nait3r and I'm blown away with the power and PRAT...it's just not as quiet, i.e. grainy...

Not knowing your mains feed it is absolutely fundamental to have a separate mains feed off your meter to the HI-FI and is step number one. Also, not knowing your source it's hard to advise. No doubt the SN1 is a fine piece. Start with your source and balance across the system. Many on the forum can offer advice along with your dealer. If you really want to experience truly impressive speaker control I think the entry point for Naim is at the NDX/282/250 or 272/250 level.

Cheers

After a week or so with 202/NAPSC/HCDR/200, my consideration for the SN is still very high: it indeed sounds like more than the sum of its parts. But I have also found that the 202/200's more graceful presentation is gratifying: everything is less upfront, edges are less sharp, muscles are less big. I am not able to define what grainy is, but I don't think I've ever experienced it with the SN. Paradoxically, I rather hear a very faint grain in the less lucid voice of the 202/200 rather than in the bold SN's one; the capacity to cast sounds neatly against a background of silence is perhaps bigger in the SN than in the pre-power, but I am surprised to recognise, in the combo, a trait of the same finesse I use to hear at a friend's who has an older pair of Albarry 408 mono blocks. Very pleasant, indeed.

mackb3 posted:

SMUG,

Let me back up a bit. 1996 my Naim journey began with a Rotel CD 955CD/LP12/Nait3r/Intro II's...2011 SN1/CD5XS...2013 SN2/Rega RP10/NDX/NDAC...2015 (see profile). Every iteration improved emotion, clarity, detail. Occasionally, I pull out the Nait3r and I'm blown away with the power and PRAT...it's just not as quiet, i.e. grainy...

Not knowing your mains feed it is absolutely fundamental to have a separate mains feed off your meter to the HI-FI and is step number one. Also, not knowing your source it's hard to advise. No doubt the SN1 is a fine piece. Start with your source and balance across the system. Many on the forum can offer advice along with your dealer. If you really want to experience truly impressive speaker control I think the entry point for Naim is at the NDX/282/250 or 272/250 level.

Cheers

Thanks for your input. Please contribute further in this topic so that we don't spoil the Max's fun  https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-supernait-and-naca5

Massimo Bertola posted:

After a week or so with 202/NAPSC/HCDR/200, my consideration for the SN is still very high: it indeed sounds like more than the sum of its parts. But I have also found that the 202/200's more graceful presentation is gratifying: everything is less upfront, edges are less sharp, muscles are less big. I am not able to define what grainy is, but I don't think I've ever experienced it with the SN. Paradoxically, I rather hear a very faint grain in the less lucid voice of the 202/200 rather than in the bold SN's one; the capacity to cast sounds neatly against a background of silence is perhaps bigger in the SN than in the pre-power, but I am surprised to recognise, in the combo, a trait of the same finesse I use to hear at a friend's who has an older pair of Albarry 408 mono blocks. Very pleasant, indeed.

I have heard a full 200 system once. I remember it being very clean sounding! Unfortunatly not utterly convincing because of the (very)badly integrated subwoofer.

SmauG posted:

Please contribute further in this topic so that we don't spoil the Max's fun  https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-supernait-and-naca5

SmauG,

I actually like threads' detours. And I don't think that anything can spoil my fun now, I've been having the 202/200 for too little time (and I usually spoil my fun myself...)  

M

Six days after my last post, the system still sounds as I wrote: lively and open (albeit with a somehow teenager-ish, cheerful rather than reflexive attitude); and, yet, less bodily and authoritative than with the SuperNait.

I must acknowledge other members' opinion: 202/200 is not necessarily better than a SN; it's different. For those who seek power and control, I still say: SuperNait, and possibly 1 not 2 (my opinion only); to those who prefer clarity, a light and luminous presentation I say 202/200. But in general the feeling of separation between instruments, of solid sound stage, of body and 'reality' is perhaps greater with the SuperNait.

Honestly, a SN1 with a HCDR is very hard to beat and I now wonder where in the Path one has to go to find something significantly better.

My options now are obvious so I won't waste anyone's time in writing them down.

More later if I go for one of those,

M

Rereading Simon's first reply 40 days later, I'm even more convinced he had more or less covered the topic there.

M

I (and others) have suggested that the 202/200 combo may not be a big enough step up from the SN and reading your recent post I suspect this is the case although I realise you are still evaluating. The 282 is a significant step up from the 202 which indeed you have heard for yourself. You also have a HCDR if I am not mistaken which is a perfect partner for the 282. Although the 282 is best partnered with a 250 (ideally a DR version) it works very well with a 200 (indeed I have used this combo and was very happy with it) until funds allow for a 250. I realise this is a larger expenditure than you might have been planning but I think it is the only way to get that stepwise improvement on the SN. Anything less than a 282/HCDR/200 is a sideways step from the SN/HCDR IMHO.

Of course a 202/200 sounds different to a SN, but does it sound better, whatever better means?

Nigel,

as I have suggested two posts back, 202/200 doesn't sound better (whatever better means) than a SN – all things, i.e. the HCDR – being equal: in fact, in a number of aspects the SN is even better (whatever, etc). You, and whoever else had anticipated this, were right. I have chosen the 202 as a temporary solution because the available 282 was too expensive for a 10 years old unit (and I had a credit to use); but I knew that this was not the end of the journey.

The sense of my latest posts was not in depreciating the 202/200, but in praising the SN, which is indeed an excellent integrated, if we consider how difficult it is, for an integrated, to conciliate power, control and subtlety in just one box.

I wish there is an end to this journey, anyway; it's beginning to look like a mild form of penal colony.

M

Maybe I misunderstood but your last posts seem to indicate that you were in a quandary and possibly looking for more ideas. Probably best you live with your temporary solution for a while to see if it is (can be) a keeper before you consider any other options. Personally I loved my 202/Hicap/200 combo until I demoed a 282. 

Free yourself of the torture of upgraditis for a while and enjoy some music!

Rather than a convoluted and incestous prolonged regard of choices, why not have be done with your lot and be content with what's playing in front of you.

on an idealogical level the only dilemma is the pleasure in question of music reaching the ears.   If the dilemma of choice is as troubling as the doubt of pleasure in listening. It might be more beneficial to take up another hobby - like gardening or pottery.

Give me £xx.xxxx amount of money to put together a system from scratch I would rather be inclined to put in more time researching and listening to put together something that will last. I would also be less inclined to share the process on an open forum lest I would make a mistake. 

Massimo Bertola posted:

 

I wish there is an end to this journey, anyway; it's beginning to look like a mild form of penal colony.

M

 

Found a way to escape this dilemma. I have accepted the fact that what I like in the Naim sound cannot be totally found elsewhere but I give myself the liberty to explore something different. Good valve amplification can widen horizons but to keep track of what Naim is all about I just keep my Nait 2 alive in the main system and switch back and forth depending on the musical style or the mood I'm in. Doesn't cost a fortune.

cat,

sounds reasonable and good advice. Thanks. I'll reply to Nigel and Toby later, now I am at the iPhone and working. Adter that, I can consider the topic closed...

(btw - I'm attending orchestral rehearsals and this makes discussing about hifi a little complicated..)

I don't think I have ever seen a nicer looking blue rug.

Thanks! It was in my wife's room when she was still living with her parents. It didn't find its proper place until we redid the studio/guest room. I'm not much for blue in the home, but this is really nice, indeed.

M.

TOBYJUG posted:

Rather than a convoluted and incestous prolonged regard of choices, why not have be done with your lot and be content with what's playing in front of you.

on an idealogical level the only dilemma is the pleasure in question of music reaching the ears.   If the dilemma of choice is as troubling as the doubt of pleasure in listening. It might be more beneficial to take up another hobby - like gardening or pottery.

Give me £xx.xxxx amount of money to put together a system from scratch I would rather be inclined to put in more time researching and listening to put together something that will last. I would also be less inclined to share the process on an open forum lest I would make a mistake. 

Obviously hanging out or seeking advice on a manufacturer run forum will almost inevitably end up in being steered towards that particular brand. You tend to lose perspective of what's available elsewhere.

cat345 posted:

Massimo Bertola posted:

 

I wish there is an end to this journey, anyway; it's beginning to look like a mild form of penal colony.

M

 

Found a way to escape this dilemma. I have accepted the fact that what I like in the Naim sound cannot be totally found elsewhere but I give myself the liberty to explore something different. Good valve amplification can widen horizons but to keep track of what Naim is all about I just keep my Nait 2 alive in the main system and switch back and forth depending on the musical style or the mood I'm in. Doesn't cost a fortune.

Good advice. I'm also looking elsewhere but am in no hurry to ditch my Naim gear for fear of regretting it later. An inexpensive tube amp with efficient speakers is a good place to start.

While not prestigious something like the Musical Paradise MP-301 MK3 for about $400 delivered can be the hub of a thoroughly enjoyable office system and an alternative to the Naim sound. Its headphone amp alone is worth the price.

So, I surely don't want to take this too far.

TOBYJUG,

your last but one post seems a little out of context to me - I didn't start this thread to complain, but to inform and be informed. I was considering a move from the SN, the move has taken place, some issues remain, nothing is perfect, all is perfectible. Quote:

Give me £xx.xxxx amount of money to put together a system from scratch I would rather be inclined to put in more time researching and listening to put together something that will last. I would also be less inclined to share the process on an open forum lest I would make a mistake. 

In my case, research undoubtedly took place: only, it wasn't reading hifi magazines or asking dealers for advice but, rather simply, buying. There's no other way to have something in your living room, except borrowing; unfortunately, home demos are free, and their results can be misleading, much the same way I always wonder how can reviewers' reviews objective if they haven't tossed the money for the box; and the same goes for book, cinema and disc reviews.

Time involved was the last ten years. I do not doubt that in ten years you – or anyone else – would have made a more durable choice, but I'm like that: I find myself in pleasant territory and decide to visit it at length. When the visit began to resemble house arrest, I started to look elsewhere (joking here).

As for this forum – I have always seen it as a communication convenience. It is not a place, of course, and we are not real people (yet) to a certain extent; we are disembodied frames of mind, with opinions and feelings, and as such we communicate. I never withdrew from exposing my opinions and feelings, here or elsewhere; never caring too much for the way I could appear. I change opinion. When I do, if I think the new one can be interesting/useful to someone, I post it.

Yes, I'm looking elsewhere – without changing my affective attitude towards Naim of an inch – but I can only do it from a sort of tabula rasa, so no more small tweaks for me: either I start from scratch or I stay where I am. Speaking of this: I have removed the HCDR and moved the SBLs closer to their wall; well, something happened, and I perhaps have finally understood the meaning of two words I often see here: to gel, and flow. It's what's happened to the sound of the system. Promising, but doesn't exclude the chance of the tabula rasa.

Best

Massimo

Massimo Bertola posted:

I always wonder how can reviewers' reviews objective if they haven't tossed the money for the box; and the same goes for book, cinema and disc reviews.

Hi Massimo,

I would say that not having purchased the device under review is an advantage for the reviewer, thus avoiding the human tendency to seek confirmation.

No review can ever be objective, as we're describing a subjective experience. The best that the reviewer can do is try to remove his personal preferences and biases from the evaluation and describe what is good, better or best (and in what ways) about the component.

Also, the reviewer can live with the equipment for months, which is a substantial advantage.

And if your tabula rasa happens, I hope that you'll recount it here 

Jan

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Hi Massimo,

I would say that not having purchased the device under review is an advantage for the reviewer, thus avoiding the human tendency to seek confirmation.

 

Hi Jan,

well I suppose it's very different for a reviewer than for a 'customer'. When I demoed at home my dealer's S-400s, I was curious, open-minded enough, had a certain wish to discover something new I liked, had the usual urge to change that, acknowledged or not, is the steady base for most members' here reason to stay. I found a number of things in the 400s that were of my taste: tightness, image, lucidity; yes the body was a little big and completely unusual for Naim speakers but in comparison the Sats seemed happy little birds singing.

When I bought my pair, things changed.  Having spent the money I wasn't so much seeking confirmation (if I may dare mentioning my main activity again, I am very accustomed to analytical evaluation, to self criticism of my work, to avoid the need to be told by someone else what I've done good and what I have done bad: I am no more a student, I am now responsible for every note, or every word, I write) as I was prone to feel the extra weight of the personal choice. Now that the speakers were mine, and I had paid good money for them, I was judging them differently. They represented my choice, my money, even my commitment to the world of consumes. I am sure that I am, by no means, alone in this, that many feel similarly whenever they buy. Whenever I buy I always feel, immediately afterwards, a tiny pang of regret: purchases do not gratify me, they oblige me. So, I am sure that if I was an audio reviewer I would be more indulgent in my views not having paid for the gear. But, in the end, I also think that neither having paid or not having paid would be the motor for objectivity, but just the feeling that we do only one thing at a time, and if we don't do it with the outmost dedication – be it washing the dishes or saving the world – life is worth zero.

Best

Massimo

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Massimo Bertola posted:

I always wonder how can reviewers' reviews objective if they haven't tossed the money for the box; and the same goes for book, cinema and disc reviews.

Hi Massimo,

I would say that not having purchased the device under review is an advantage for the reviewer, thus avoiding the human tendency to seek confirmation.

No review can ever be objective, as we're describing a subjective experience. The best that the reviewer can do is try to remove his personal preferences and biases from the evaluation and describe what is good, better or best (and in what ways) about the component.

Also, the reviewer can live with the equipment for months, which is a substantial advantage.

And if your tabula rasa happens, I hope that you'll recount it here 

Jan

BTW Jan-Erik...how are you enjoying your Alabaster?

Immensely.

It immerses me in the music, every time. And my mind doesn't wander to thoughts of upgrading.

Now playing through a pair of Davis Acoustics Olympia Master One speakers. They're giving the Graham LS5/9s a good run for their money.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Immensely.

It immerses me in the music, every time. And my mind doesn't wander to thoughts of upgrading.

Now playing through a pair of Davis Acoustics Olympia Master One speakers. They're giving the Graham LS5/9s a good run for their money.

I'd own one myself in an instant if it had remote capability and a headphone output.

No headphone output was what kept me away from Naim for so long. Still considering it though.

The SN2 has a decent headphone amp...