Nait2 upgrade to Supernait1?

Posted by: Yetizone on 15 February 2016

Hi folks. 
 
I’m seriously thinking of switching my old CB Naim 2 in my office system for a more modern integrated amp. A 2nd hand Supernait MK1 being at the top of the list, although, I am open minded about exploring other avenues. The new unit must have either an iOS remote control app or a dedicated independent remote - important as the amp has been located out of arms reach after an office redecoration. Funds limit the switch to the first SN version only i’m afraid. But in time a Hi-Cap (DR?) may follow. 
 
My main aim is a more powerful amp to have a little more lower register grip and provide more current to open up the possibility of a wider range of speakers that require a more muscular amp to drive them adequately. Plus to cure the slightly harsh sibilant treble at higher volumes.
 
As I’ll have to be buying used without an audition, there is an element of risk, so would appreciate any pointers that the more experienced Naim owners could impart - who have perhaps compared both amps.
 
So what can I expect to gain when going from the old timer Nait 2 to the SN1?  Observations welcome. 
 
For ref, the system is decidedly old and new school as outlined.  
Posted on: 21 February 2016 by joerand
WTCRP posted:
 Power has nothing to do with musicality.

I don't doubt that musicality can be found with any level of gear, but power can enhance the experience.  For rock listening (amplified music) I find that - all else being equal - additional power brings increased musicality via grip on the bass. Better control of bass guitar and separation of kick drum help define and drive the musicality for me. Entry level Naits are fun in their own regard, but there are reasons folks pay more to move beyond them. Greater musical involvement for one.

Posted on: 22 February 2016 by Massimo Bertola

Yeti,

I am not completely sure in fact I want to change.

Anyway, in my living room, the SN1 is just a little too bodily sometimes, lacking some 'air'. But I have been struggling with my room acoustics for years. I need fast, clear sounding gear to meet the needs of my analytical and ageing ears... But judging from what I have heard so far, I wouldn't buy another integrated than a SN1. I have owned a Nait, a Nait3, a Nait5, a 5i, two NaitXS, two SN1s, one SuperUniti. I don't know the Nait2. The only Nait I liked more than the others on pure sonic grounds was the lovely Nait5, but it lacks power in a largish living room. As MarkJ said so well, there is no substitute for power.

The SN1 is very good, and if you add a HCDR it becomes all you need. A HCDR adds some refinement to the boldness, some grace to the masculinity: better, to my ears, than a SN2. But, of course, that makes it a two-box, very expensive integrated. Found 2nd hand, this becomes one great solution. That said, I plan to change because, for a series of reasons so silly that I find them silly even related to myself, I now have a credit with a dealer and he has nothing of my interest safe a 202 and a 282...

Best

Max

Posted on: 23 February 2016 by WTCRP
joerand posted:
WTCRP posted:
 Power has nothing to do with musicality.

I don't doubt that musicality can be found with any level of gear, but power can enhance the experience.  For rock listening (amplified music) I find that - all else being equal - additional power brings increased musicality via grip on the bass. Better control of bass guitar and separation of kick drum help define and drive the musicality for me. Entry level Naits are fun in their own regard, but there are reasons folks pay more to move beyond them. Greater musical involvement for one.

If bass defines "musicality" for you - awesome!  Some folks do.  Others like me - not.  It's not all about the bass (sorry Meghan Trainor).  It's the overall presentation as a whole.  One of my good friend always require bass pounding in his chest as a musical requirement.  I can't figure that one out.  Grip on bass is fantastic with my Nait2 and my 91dB transducers.  Honestly what's musical is subjective to different people's ears.   Some people older in age have hearing loss and hence need more sparkle from their setup.  Some may need a little physical vibration for stimulation.  Some need cigars and slippers as a requirement.  I've long stopped listening with my eyes that spending more is better - not true at all.  It's about system synergy to listening area to music genre.  "GAS" is a term in photography about guys with 'gear acquisition syndrome'.  Perhaps that may be the symptom in this hobby as well for some people who constantly are on the upgrade path ---> the merry-go-round that never stops.

Posted on: 23 February 2016 by TOBYJUG

".....All the gear but no idea.."

Posted on: 23 February 2016 by joerand
WTCRP posted:
joerand posted:
WTCRP posted:
 Power has nothing to do with musicality.

I don't doubt that musicality can be found with any level of gear, but power can enhance the experience.  For rock listening (amplified music) I find that - all else being equal - additional power brings increased musicality via grip on the bass. Better control of bass guitar and separation of kick drum help define and drive the musicality for me. Entry level Naits are fun in their own regard, but there are reasons folks pay more to move beyond them. Greater musical involvement for one.

If bass defines "musicality" for you - awesome!  Some folks do.  Others like me - not.  It's not all about the bass (sorry Meghan Trainor).  It's the overall presentation as a whole.  One of my good friend always require bass pounding in his chest as a musical requirement.  I can't figure that one out.  Grip on bass is fantastic with my Nait2 and my 91dB transducers.  Honestly what's musical is subjective to different people's ears.   Some people older in age have hearing loss and hence need more sparkle from their setup.  Some may need a little physical vibration for stimulation.  Some need cigars and slippers as a requirement.  I've long stopped listening with my eyes that spending more is better - not true at all.  It's about system synergy to listening area to music genre.  "GAS" is a term in photography about guys with 'gear acquisition syndrome'.  Perhaps that may be the symptom in this hobby as well for some people who constantly are on the upgrade path ---> the merry-go-round that never stops.

The point you might be missing is that as amplification increases, bass quality increases while the relative bass quantity likely decreases due to better definition (grip) of the bass.  This is what plays into the musicality - a more refined, less colored sound on the bottom end that enhances the overall sound quality. Quite contrary to your suggestion that more amplification merely brings more "thump" - (my word). It's probably something you'll either 'get' if/when you hear it or not, and a part of the reason folks move to better amps and apply PSU's. Important to some, not so much to others. As you say, each listener has their own unique ear to satisfy.  Sounds like you've found a good synergy with your Nait2 and efficient speakers, and that's all that matters in the end. Enjoy the music!

Posted on: 24 February 2016 by WTCRP
joerand posted:
WTCRP posted:
joerand posted:
WTCRP posted:
 Power has nothing to do with musicality.

I don't doubt that musicality can be found with any level of gear, but power can enhance the experience.  For rock listening (amplified music) I find that - all else being equal - additional power brings increased musicality via grip on the bass. Better control of bass guitar and separation of kick drum help define and drive the musicality for me. Entry level Naits are fun in their own regard, but there are reasons folks pay more to move beyond them. Greater musical involvement for one.

If bass defines "musicality" for you - awesome!  Some folks do.  Others like me - not.  It's not all about the bass (sorry Meghan Trainor).  It's the overall presentation as a whole.  One of my good friend always require bass pounding in his chest as a musical requirement.  I can't figure that one out.  Grip on bass is fantastic with my Nait2 and my 91dB transducers.  Honestly what's musical is subjective to different people's ears.   Some people older in age have hearing loss and hence need more sparkle from their setup.  Some may need a little physical vibration for stimulation.  Some need cigars and slippers as a requirement.  I've long stopped listening with my eyes that spending more is better - not true at all.  It's about system synergy to listening area to music genre.  "GAS" is a term in photography about guys with 'gear acquisition syndrome'.  Perhaps that may be the symptom in this hobby as well for some people who constantly are on the upgrade path ---> the merry-go-round that never stops.

The point you might be missing is that as amplification increases, bass quality increases while the relative bass quantity likely decreases due to better definition (grip) of the bass.  This is what plays into the musicality - a more refined, less colored sound on the bottom end that enhances the overall sound quality. Quite contrary to your suggestion that more amplification merely brings more "thump" - (my word). It's probably something you'll either 'get' if/when you hear it or not, and a part of the reason folks move to better amps and apply PSU's. Important to some, not so much to others. As you say, each listener has their own unique ear to satisfy.  Sounds like you've found a good synergy with your Nait2 and efficient speakers, and that's all that matters in the end. Enjoy the music!

Well noted.  You need to remember that SET's which put out 1-5 watts/channel give out excellent grip, detail and quality on bass as well ----> matched to 100dB transducers.  Again, it's not just about power that can give quality bass, but as I mentioned earlier system synergy of matching equipment.  Would you not agree?  And yes, I totally agree ---> enjoy the music!  Search out new genres instead of new gear - life's too short.  Don't listen with the eyes but with the heart.

Posted on: 25 February 2016 by Yetizone

After reading through the thread again it seems that the differences between Supernait 1 & 2 are quite marked, so I think I’m going to chase down a demonstration of the SN 2 just to cure my curiosity, using my Nait 2 as a reference point. Plus, seek out alternatives to compare against the SN2 at the same time - just to reinforce that Naim is the direction I still want to go in. Probably be the usual suspects that I have listened to before, Linn, Roksan, Exposure, Creek etc. Plus some of the new boxes gaining attention - specifically Hegel spring to mind as the top contender.

Posted on: 25 February 2016 by Christopher_M

Ok. Are you going to stick with the wall-mounted MAs?

C.

Posted on: 25 February 2016 by Yetizone
Hi C, Not in the long term, the MA252's are just too big in their new (adapted) location on the SO brackets and will be moth balled in the loft. Current set up with the old timers was always going to be temporary.
 
For any new speaker choice, close rear wall proximity is a factor though, I’ll be researching speakers at some point after / if, the Nait2 is replaced. Although, if a pair of piano black Rega RS1’s come up locally for sale then I will plunge for them as they can migrate (long term) into my home AV Rega speaker system and replace my Kyte’s. They would be a much better fit on the SO stands! 
 
Inspired by Ulrikl’s photos of a beautifully minimal speaker placement and support, I will certainly explore going to the lengths of having Sound Organisation style stands fabricated up for the next choice of boxes.
 
https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...85#53519507272208985
 
https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...85#53519507272208985
 
I would quite like to explore 2nd hand Guru speakers (QM10 or Juniors) for the space as they are allegedly easy to place; also fancy trying a set of KEF LS50's but the rear port worries me a little given where I would need to site them. When undertaking the SN2 dem, I'll outline my room set up to the dealer and hopefully they can suggest appropriate amp / speaker combinations. I may be mistaken, but it does  seem the majority of modern speaker designs are rear ported these days, which does limit choice.
Posted on: 25 February 2016 by Christopher_M

Not necessarily, rear ported speakers can work very well in all sorts of rooms. True to say they might well need a bit more trial and error with placement though.

C.

Posted on: 25 February 2016 by mpw

if possible do an audition of the Sonneteer Alabaster