500 DR upgrade time

analogmusic posted:

Hi Graham, how would you compare the S1 upgrade compared to going from 300 to 300 DR?

300 to 300DR is a fairly significant jump but 552 to S1 Pre is a *massive* step forwards.  Going back to a 552 at the end of a 2 week home demo was quite shocking actually.

Paul Quigley ie posted:

Rob T posted:

Firstly I just want to thank JN personally for your hospitality yesterday, as always a real pleasure to spend quality time with the like minded, oh and the little added bonus of listening to the Quad ELS was the icing on the cake.

 

 

May I ask if the 500 was used with Quad ELS as I thought this was not possible?

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul,

As George has correctly stated; the ESL57's are not compatible with a bridged amplifier. My 57's run off a Nait XSII in my second/study system and are sounding delightful as I type this reply. Possibly counter-intuitively; I they work superbly well with modern music due to the ability of their large and very low mass mylar drive surfaces to deliver a very fast, transparent and agile sound.

John.

Graham Clarke posted:

300 to 300DR is a fairly significant jump but 552 to S1 Pre is a *massive* step forwards.  Going back to a 552 at the end of a 2 week home demo was quite shocking actually.

The jump from 552 to S1 Pre is indeed massive - and it still keeps on giving!

When I reached the 9 month mark of run-in recently I've noticed a remarkable additional increase in performance that I would not have thought possible. This was predicted by early adopters, but now I hear it too. There is also the run-in of the full SL loom going on in parallel, so I think there is some compounding of these. New musical detail clearly there now where a few weeks ago I imagined that I was hearing all there was - this is one of the things that continues to please. Where before was a noise-floor and rough-edges of low-level detail, now are clearly defined musical notes throughout the musical frequency spectrum. For example, the Suzan Vega 'Solitude Standing' album I know rather well has now gained a striking authority in the Bass and her vocals especially have a velvety softness that was masked before - delightful to hear.

And all of this is with my ropy old non-DR NAP500 stack Active. Having heard the difference the DR 500 did in friends systems I have an upgrade slot booked in a month's time to get all mine done. From what I heard the DR 500 will be a splendid match for the S1 Pre.

DB.

For those that are prepared to spend thousands more on upgrading what is already an excellent system, at what point will you be satisfied with what you already have?

Surely there must have been a point when you thought this sounds good enough for long term musical enjoyment so why not stop there? Isn't there a danger that upgrading becomes obsessional?

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

The 500 is definitely not recommended for the original ESL 57, though it will work for a while before the speaker destroys itself, and the 500 in the process. 

Few transistor amplifiers are suitable, but the non-bridged Naim amps are suitable for the ESL 57 ...

Better to look to the kind of amp the speaker was intended for ... Sixteen quality Watts is all that is needed ...

George, thanks for the reply.  I have the later Quads ELS 989, ran them from a Nait for a while. All was OK but not super detailed.  So I guess a 300 is as far up the power amp chain I can go with the Quads.

Jonn posted:

For those that are prepared to spend thousands more on upgrading what is already an excellent system, at what point will you be satisfied with what you already have?

Surely there must have been a point when you thought this sounds good enough for long term musical enjoyment so why not stop there? Isn't there a danger that upgrading becomes obsessional?

 

 this made me smile - and if you think about it one has to question the logic of upgrading beyond a certain point as the audio replay  equipment will be operating at quite a different level of performance to the recording, mixing and mastering equipment.. so the concept of the audio actually improving further and taking big steps 'forward' etc  is flawed as you move beyond  the performance window of the recording/mastering environment  ... but probably best not  go down that path.

In audio engineering - a recording - storage - replay chain can be  seen as a continuous system and the performance of each part of the chain affects the overall performance on that system ...so the recording/mixing/mastering becomes the limiting factor.  I think I remember reading a paper on this subject in the AES library  that in modern audio recording and replay a system can be typically modelled as seven or eight discrete stages.

Funny Thing happen, Just thought I would share it with you guys! 

First I apologize for hi jacking OP's Post, I usually just observe from the outside, since I'm not in the 300 or 500 Club. 

To the point, when I first heard of warming up of Amps, break in periods, etc, I thought it was all hog wash, but now I'm a believer, Wow! 

Any how ordered Classical CD, I know CD, but for some reason the system just wasn't there. 

Anyhow went through the CDX2 dash and had the setting set for 0 and 00, which I remembered it wouldn't perform up to par @ those settings! 

changed settings to 0 Din only! 

lo and behold, the System is purring beautifully!  

CDX2/282/HCDR/3 x 250.2's/Fraimlite/Briks

Point being, that's what we do spend thousands of dollars for a difference that perhaps wouldn't be noticeable by the Norm!

But Remember, we aren't the Norm!!!!!!

Allante93! 

J.N. posted:

Paul Quigley ie posted:

Rob T posted:

Firstly I just want to thank JN personally for your hospitality yesterday, as always a real pleasure to spend quality time with the like minded, oh and the little added bonus of listening to the Quad ELS was the icing on the cake.

 

 

May I ask if the 500 was used with Quad ELS as I thought this was not possible?

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul,

As George has correctly stated; the ESL57's are not compatible with a bridged amplifier. My 57's run off a Nait XSII in my second/study system and are sounding delightful as I type this reply. Possibly counter-intuitively; I they work superbly well with modern music due to the ability of their large and very low mass mylar drive surfaces to deliver a very fast, transparent and agile sound.

John.

 

Hi John,

So what is it about ESL speakers that make them incompatible with bridged amplifier designs?

Darke Bear posted:

Graham Clarke posted:

300 to 300DR is a fairly significant jump but 552 to S1 Pre is a *massive* step forwards.  Going back to a 552 at the end of a 2 week home demo was quite shocking actually.

The jump from 552 to S1 Pre is indeed massive - and it still keeps on giving!

When I reached the 9 month mark of run-in recently I've noticed a remarkable additional increase in performance that I would not have thought possible. This was predicted by early adopters, but now I hear it too. There is also the run-in of the full SL loom going on in parallel, so I think there is some compounding of these. New musical detail clearly there now where a few weeks ago I imagined that I was hearing all there was - this is one of the things that continues to please. Where before was a noise-floor and rough-edges of low-level detail, now are clearly defined musical notes throughout the musical frequency spectrum. For example, the Suzan Vega 'Solitude Standing' album I know rather well has now gained a striking authority in the Bass and her vocals especially have a velvety softness that was masked before - delightful to hear.

And all of this is with my ropy old non-DR NAP500 stack Active. Having heard the difference the DR 500 did in friends systems I have an upgrade slot booked in a month's time to get all mine done. From what I heard the DR 500 will be a splendid match for the S1 Pre.

DB.

Oooh, good luck with the upgrade (and service?), hope it gets done quickly.  Is Signals lending you something in the mean time?

Yes - Service and upgrade.
I think I will have to survive without my system for a month while it is gone, as too much to ask for a loan of three amps.

It still surprises me that there is so much more on those disks that I'd never realised - and these are standard red book CDs.
I suppose you have to hear it yourself, but final replay section of the various stages of the HiFi have far more effect than many seem to want to think they should - which is useful for HiFi Manufacturers.

DB.

Hi Darke Bear,

Could you tell me how good you think the S800's are now as I can't any reviews except yours previously, have you ever heard anything you consider superior? I know there are a few left in stock and I am considering my future, it may be now or never. I currently have NBL's.

Cheers

Rich

My Dealer sold another two pairs of Active S800 over the last two weeks, so I think there are a few thinking the same.

You really can't compare them to NBLs as they are in a different league altogether. I find they have all the strengths of the DBL in scale and authority, but also create stable holographic images like a panel speaker, but without any hint of stress. They made my previous Active S600 sound small and silly - the S800 reveals the richness of tone and harmonic structures in instruments and voice in a way I've not heard other speakers manage. I'm glad I have mine. The speaker is always in command of what it is rendering, but in such a light-touch way. They open-up the music to allow deeper insights. They also do bass fast and deep and handle drums properly - lots of power on the hits when there - this I think is due to the flat-panel 11" Bass driver system, which matches the enhanced BMR unit they use better than was done with the S600 - but you pay for that in cost and speaker size, they are big!

I demoed mine on behalf of my Dealer to a couple who had Titans driven with two NAP500 and they told me they never heard the performance insight, intent and grip these rendered. They now have S800.
If you can afford them, you won't regret owning them IMO. The finest development of Naim's speaker art I feel.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

My Dealer sold another two pairs of Active S800 over the last two weeks, so I think there are a few thinking the same.

You really can't compare them to NBLs as they are in a different league altogether. I find they have all the strengths of the DBL in scale and authority, but also create stable holographic images like a panel speaker, but without any hint of stress. They made my previous Active S600 sound small and silly - the S800 reveals the richness of tone and harmonic structures in instruments and voice in a way I've not heard other speakers manage. I'm glad I have mine. The speaker is always in command of what it is rendering, but in such a light-touch way. They open-up the music to allow deeper insights. They also do bass fast and deep and handle drums properly - lots of power on the hits when there - this I think is due to the flat-panel 11" Bass driver system, which matches the enhanced BMR unit they use better than was done with the S600 - but you pay for that in cost and speaker size, they are big!

I demoed mine on behalf of my Dealer to a couple who had Titans driven with two NAP500 and they told me they never heard the performance insight, intent and grip these rendered. They now have S800.
If you can afford them, you won't regret owning them IMO. The finest development of Naim's speaker art I feel.

DB.

Many thanks Darke Bear. Very insightful and helpful but expensive review.

Darke Bear posted:

 

And all of this is with my ropy old non-DR NAP500 stack Active. Having heard the difference the DR 500 did in friends systems I have an upgrade slot booked in a month's time to get all mine done. From what I heard the DR 500 will be a splendid match for the S1 Pre.

DB.

Just thinking out loud here, but why would you go through the expense of the DR upgrade(about 27,000 US dollars)? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell your three 500 amps and buy the Statement amp? That would be a much better use of your money, as the Statement amp is to the 500 what the Statement pre is to the 552! MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT!!!

badlands posted:

Just thinking out loud here, but why would you go through the expense of the DR upgrade(about 27,000 US dollars)? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell your three 500 amps and buy the Statement amp? That would be a much better use of your money, as the Statement amp is to the 500 what the Statement pre is to the 552! MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT!!!

badlands, it's an active thing!

 Point and case:

Laurence Dickie, Hi end Speaker designer, Giya GT3's 

"Laurence Dickie: "I have always been a keen advocate of the active approach to loudspeaker design, believing that the direct connection between amplifier and voice coil offers the purest route and that the precision and linearity of active electronics give a clear advantage over passive alternatives. However for pragmatic reasons we felt it unwise to go to market with only active speakers. An important part of the design phase of the first Vivid Audio products was a re-evaluation of passive crossover design. It has to be said that the use of computer-aided circuit analysis has really changed the game. The accuracy possible to meet target responses while presenting a safe load is quite remarkable. This coupled with drivers which present constant impedances across a wide range of drive levels, non-polar film dielectric capacitors and air-cored inductors has permitted us to create passive designs which really challenge the active alternatives."

To Boot, Dickie reworked a pair of his 4 way speaker design G2's with a joint Venture with Naim. 

That's right 3 500's with Naim's own Snaxo.

Posted on Graham Clarke's ( so who's active then)

Mind you the 40K GT3's 2014 award winning speakers didn't sound bad, but the passive crossover was still in play.

BTW 40K USA, third tier, not top of the line.

Simple System:

NDS/2 x 555PS/ Statement/Fraim/SL Full Loom

Hosted by the esteem Manu, here in the United states! 

Allante93!

You're not comparing apples to apples here, maybe  an active 500 system is better than a passive 500 system, but The Statement amp is so massively better than the 500 in an active set up, I would guarantee even Naim would unequivocally say the same, imagine the money that was used to purchase all the Fraim's , full loom of SL cables, and the power lines plus the DR upgrade, he should of just purchased the Statement amp for LESS money, he would have been much better off, so much simpler and so much better sonically than what he has now. Just my opinion.

Graham Clarke posted:

 

 

Hi John,

So what is it about ESL speakers that make them incompatible with bridged amplifier designs?

I have no idea Graham. This is one for The Bear. 

Please enlighten us Gary.

John.

Amps like the NAP500 and the Statement Monoblocks use differential-drive outputs to the speaker, which means both output terminals are driven in anti-phase to deliver higher power into the speaker - and remove all 'earth return' currents from the speakers from causing distortion in the Amp's 0v referenced input stage - which can happen when you consider the very high currents driven to the speaker. So the NAP500 has something similar to two NAP300 output circuits for each channel.

But some speakers were designed for traditional 'single-ended' drive from the Amp, where one terminal is near 0v 'earth' and is passive. As to if this is due to negative voltages causing harm to the speakers - or another reason I don't know, but differential 'bridged' amplifiers are different.

DB.

Thanks Gary. Well explained. It's currently 'The Sounds of Silence' here. Andy Thunderclap Newman has resurrected himself and put in an appearance in south Norfolk - with hailstones! - so my systems are off and unplugged from the mains. Grrrrr!!!

Better safe than sorry.

John.

Darke Bear posted:

Amps like the NAP500 and the Statement Monoblocks use differential-drive outputs to the speaker, which means both output terminals are driven in anti-phase to deliver higher power into the speaker - and remove all 'earth return' currents from the speakers from causing distortion in the Amp's 0v referenced input stage - which can happen when you consider the very high currents driven to the speaker. So the NAP500 has something similar to two NAP300 output circuits for each channel.

But some speakers were designed for traditional 'single-ended' drive from the Amp, where one terminal is near 0v 'earth' and is passive. As to if this is due to negative voltages causing harm to the speakers - or another reason I don't know, but differential 'bridged' amplifiers are different.

DB.

....eh....what he said!!

Darke Bear posted:

Amps like the NAP500 and the Statement Monoblocks use differential-drive outputs to the speaker, which means both output terminals are driven in anti-phase to deliver higher power into the speaker - and remove all 'earth return' currents from the speakers from causing distortion in the Amp's 0v referenced input stage - which can happen when you consider the very high currents driven to the speaker. So the NAP500 has something similar to two NAP300 output circuits for each channel.

But some speakers were designed for traditional 'single-ended' drive from the Amp, where one terminal is near 0v 'earth' and is passive. As to if this is due to negative voltages causing harm to the speakers - or another reason I don't know, but differential 'bridged' amplifiers are different.

DB.

Thanks for the explanation Gary.

J.N. posted:

Thanks Gary. Well explained. It's currently 'The Sounds of Silence' here. Andy Thunderclap Newman has resurrected himself and put in an appearance in south Norfolk - with hailstones! - so my systems are off and unplugged from the mains. Grrrrr!!!

Better safe than sorry.

John.

I thought I heard thunder from the north as Michael and Pam arrived for a listening session and wondered whether we would end up powering the system down. However, it transpired that the weather was better in North Suffolk than it was in South Norfolk.

The beast is back. Just under a two month round trip. With a 250 on loan (thank you Andrew and Ian) we were not music-less and with all due respect to the 250, the moment the 500 was back in the rack, the signature effortless transparency was so obvious it was remarkable. Too early to judge the DR gains but much enjoyment ahead. I believe its departure from the shop to me this afternoon as  was witnessed by a fellow forum member.

If I can tear myself away from it I will report impressions.  I haven't had the invoice yet. I think it's about £4.2K including the VAT.

Hi Harry, I had just finished my demo of a new Naim system saw Ian carry the beast to his vehicle he had a slightly strained expression on his face!!!

Hope you enjoy the upgrade on your 500, the demo I had was superb should have the new kit in 3/4 weeks

Ah! The identity is revealed. I hope you had a good demo.

Thank you. It will probably take a few weeks but it's not like it sounds too bad now