500 DR upgrade time

Analogmusic, yes we have been talking about the signal ground references with the sources.. Essentially these are unbalanced signals hence why they need an absolute reference.

When an amp uses a bridged output, effectively it uses a balanced output, that is the negative  half of the bridge becomes the reference to the positive side of the bridge (like an Ethernet lead twisted pair) ... so essentially. as far as the speaker is concerned with two inputs, there is no reference to ground apart from through the amps output stages and electronics. Now why and how bridged outputs are preferable from a SQ point of view I'm not sufficiently expert.. typically in my experience bridging is used to increase power with reduced power bus  voltages...but I suspect that's not the reason Naim do it, it might be more to do ground lift caused by the reactive current from the loudspeaker load. With low level very low current source signals over relatively short distances, the effect of ground lift (potential difference created across  the ground reference connection) is I suspect effectively nought.

Simon

Harry posted:

Laxton Yeo posted:

there seems to be some signs that naim may be refreshing the preamp line soon

That's interesting. What have you heard?

The preamps are the only products not getting a price increase in May. 

They discounted the power amps ahead of the DR upgrade. I know because I bought my 300 just before the discount, thinking I was being clever by beating that year's April price rise.

Keith

Or there has been no or minimal price increase in the raw materials. No transformers in the classic series NACs, and copper has been rising in cost. Also when there changes in the pipeline suddenly a lot demo and used kit appears.. I have seen no evidence of that yet, in fact I was thinking to myself yesterday when I looked at my fave places there was a shortage of such used equipment.

Simon

The 202 has a transformer and remains at £2,050.

Keith are you sure? where? My 202 certainly didn't have a power transformer.BTW the 202 is the only NAC I have seen many used versions on the market.

No I'm not! I'm thinking of the 200 being able to power a pre, am I not?

joerand posted:

I have it on good word that Naim's IC's, Powerlines and speaker cables are soon to be offered with a cryogenic upgrade. I haven't been hanging out in pubs around Salisbury, still time will tell whether my speculation has any credibility.

A cryogenic upgrade? Cool!

Dustysox posted:

we have the same set up (except speakers) eat the same food, wear the same clothes etc etc!! I mean, we really seem/like the same "stuff" which is a really good thing,

Have you got the green T shirt? I can't find it anywhere.

And we need some milk

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Guys, I think we're confusing safety earth with signal star grounding, they are two very different things but Naim use them together. The star grounding uses the safety earth as a ground reference so as to assist very small signal voltages not being lost  and low frequencies being attenuated. The star earth is used so as to stop ground loops, and so the signal ground and safety earth reference is done at one point, and as stated with Naim done with one of the sources.

Simon

It is helpful in avoiding confusion, as I tried (but seem to still be failing to do), to use different labels. I called the Mains voltage reference 'Mains Earth' and the internal voltage reference used inside the electronics '0v' (Zero Volt).

The electronics in the boxes is a self contained system that is tied, for human safety, to the 'Mains Earth'. There is no large current flowing into the Mains Earth - as it is not a circuit, or should not be if all is working well.

When you lift the negative speaker terminal from the '0v' then no current directly returns to it, but stays in the differential output circuit of the Amp - if these are driving the speakers 'perfectly' then the positive and negative phases of the output cancel each other in powering the speaker and there is no residual offset. In real life there is a little, but nothing like what is there in a 'normal' Amp that does not drive the negative speaker terminal - this is why it is called balanced operation.

Either way - listen and decide still works.

DB.

Harry posted:

Dustysox posted:

we have the same set up (except speakers) eat the same food, wear the same clothes etc etc!! I mean, we really seem/like the same "stuff" which is a really good thing,

Have you got the green T shirt? I can't find it anywhere.

And we need some milk

A perfect reply - made me laugh out loud!  

Congrats Harry - glad to hear your 500DR has finally come home.

ATB.

Hook

At the risk of complicating this further, what you describe above sounds very similar to the effect of a balanced mains transformer. I wonder if you would comment on the effect of that  in the system?

It is something that crossed my mind given I suffer from some transformer hum. Although I wouldn't want to make any changes before upcoming changes to full SL.

Thanks Hook.

KRM posted:

Harry posted:

Laxton Yeo posted:

there seems to be some signs that naim may be refreshing the preamp line soon

That's interesting. What have you heard?

The preamps are the only products not getting a price increase in May. 

They discounted the power amps ahead of the DR upgrade. I know because I bought my 300 just before the discount, thinking I was being clever by beating that year's April price rise.

Keith

The topic of the annual price increase came up at yesterday's factory tour and we were told that the reason for the delay by one month for this year's increase was due to the fact that they were just so busy at HQ they simply couldn't get it done in time. We were also told that this is the first year they have thoroughly analysed manufacturing costs by product, particularly the man-hours (that should actually read person-hours as there are as many women as men in the factory) that go into each product to manufacture it. This is why there hasn't been a blanket increase this year. The increase (if any) now relates more closely to the actual costs by product which could be a reason why classic preamps see no increase. These products have of course been in production for many years with minimal changes so the initial design and development costs are more likely to have been recovered by now, again lessening the pressure on annual price increases.

Apologies to the OP for the diversion in topic.

My DR and Service booked slot has also been delayed by a month I was told yesterday. The reason was the delays discussed above.

DB.

No apology needed Nigel. Thank you for sharing the information. Appreciated and interesting.

Bummer!

Ah well; a bit more time to save up, Gary. 

John. 

Keith,

Just like yourself, I purchased my 300 just before the DR was announced. That's why I do not want to be caught a second time buying a preamp that may be replaced right after purchase.

Darke Bear posted:

My DR and Service booked slot has also been delayed by a month I was told yesterday. The reason was the delays discussed above.

DB.

It will be worth the wait I'm sure. But irritating none the less.

If Naim were going to refresh or revamp the classic preamp range (or indeed expand upwards the streamer/preamp range), that would understandably never be shared with us mortals. I too jumped in when generous trade ins were offered on power amps (pre DR) and traded in my 200 against a new 250.2. I remember at the time being suspicious of what might be happening to the classic power amp range and my dealer assured me he had heard nothing. Several months later DR'd power amps arrived.

As the classic pre amps have already had a boost with DR'd power supplies and classic black box case design seems settled with new products following suit (272) maybe the current classic preamps have a few more years in them as yet. Possibly they could get the swanky new volume control like the 272/Muso/Statement which I would hope would be retrofittable.

I all honesty, I have absolutely no idea, but it is fun to speculate.

oh well, the current preamps (whether the 202/282/252 range, or 172/272) all work very well musically, so not sure what a new preamp range would bring.... personally I don't think any preamp refresh is on the way. 

I could be wrong, but even if I am, it doesn't mean the current preamps will be any less musical.

Some trade members use even 32.5/Hi/CB250 and recently somebody on the forum said how impressed the NAC 12 sounded with a 160, and those are almost 40 year old preamp/amp.

My money would be on the 372 and 572, and then the standard preamps being dropped altogether. The 272 seems to be massively successful, and the appeal of a huge stack of boxes is waning. 

Cue hike in secondhand values if that happened

Chris Dolan posted:

Cue hike in secondhand values if that happened

Chris, hope you are not suggesting my 252 already has antique value. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

My money would be on the 372 and 572, and then the standard preamps being dropped altogether. The 272 seems to be massively successful, and the appeal of a huge stack of boxes is waning. 

Yes, yesterday Naim were telling us how they significantly underestimated the demand for the 272. The forecast demand for the 272 was based on that of a slightly uplifted sales volume profile of the N172 XS. Wrong!

A focus on the *72 streamer/preamp range would of course lessen demand for discrete preamps AND discrete streamers. It would also move more folk from CD to streaming, lessening demand for CD players. Of course the other (Scottish) company has abandoned CD players if I am not mistaken. It would also be necessary to demonstrate a net SQ superiority of a one box streamer/preamp over 'equivalent' separates and/or the one box solution offering better sound per pound.

Hope the OP still does not mind us banging on about this stuff.

nigelb posted:

Hope the OP still does not mind us banging on about this stuff.

Let's face it, it's not going to stop anyone even if they did   ;-)

C.