250DR against 500 (driven by 552 and NDAC)

IMO if the 250DR is less than three months old, it's not a fair test

How many months does the NAP250 DR need to run in, to me it sounds like the capacitors need even more time than 3 months?

analogmusic posted:

 

I think getting the 552 without the 500 is not able to do full justice to what the 552 is really capable of.

 

True. But it does go very well with a 300, It's just a different kind of presentation albeit still excellent for what it is (and at the price - let's not forget the considerable price difference).  I regard the 552/500 as a really well balanced pseudo integrated. There appears to be a kind of synergy that you don't get elsewhere, although 252/300 also click together very naturally.  I'm getting a 250 next week to run with a 552. The 250 is my least favourite Naim power amp so it will be interesting to see how it fares in my current system/room. I might be in for a nice surprise.

I haven't heard the 252/300 together, but (mostly from your posts over the years Harry), I would now think the true Naim hi-end is really the 252/300 and the 552/500.

282/250 gives you a hint of that, but I think the 252/300 could well be a final amp?

what do you think Harry having owned both now?

analogmusic posted:

I would now think the true Naim hi-end is really the 252/300 and the 552/500.

 

I guess we should include Statement now, but yes.

I’m a bit more dogmatic than that, which hasn’t gone down well over the years, in saying that in my view the 200 and 250 actually represent poor value for money because I can do better elsewhere for less. The same being true of the 202 and 282 although a 282/SC is said to be an altogether better proposition by people whose ears I trust and the DR power amp introduction might have kicked this into touch in any case.  So I’m only qualified to speak in terms of pre DR power amps. It is reasonable to suppose that DR power amp upgrades have raised the whole range whilst keeping distances between levels roughly the same. I don’t know if this is actually the case and I expect opinion will be normally distributed. Knowing Naim’s accuracy in price differentiation I think it’s a safe assumption. In the fullness of time my ears will doubtless hear more of the new range. Life span permitting.

I think the 282/300 represents (in the Naim range and at a reasonable price in the whole industry) some of the best HiFi you can buy. It’s so unforced, poised, communicative and apparently well balanced, that you tend to listen more in terms of the musical performance, the arrangement, the interplay, the mixing than in terms of how well the HiFi is portraying it. For us it was a wonderful place to stop. A dream combination. We found what we thought were better (and cheaper) alternatives to 202/200, later 282/Hi/250 and permutations of these components. Lots of home and dealer auditions took place and we just couldn’t make friends with any of them. But we had saved money so that was all right.

Such was our determination to give our CDX2 a Naim amp to sing with that we actually considered changing speakers in the hope that the 282/250 would work for us. Silly I know and a bout of slavish sheep behavior which we were wise to avoid. However, in the middle of all that we got to hear a 252/300 and were amazed, transfixed, awed, etc. Some of our favourite music actually made us cry at the dealer – for the right reasons I hasten to add. Such a contrast to the 282/250, which couldn’t hold our attention, sometimes for a single track.

Before we were lucky enough to get our 252/300 we heard HDX/XPS2/552/500/SL2/nSub at the dealer when Naim did a roadshow which among other things introduced the HDX. This was not HiFi at all. This was music. There wasn’t any HiFi in the room, just the singers, musicians and their instruments and all the skill, technique, emotion and spit that went into the performance. For me a form of time travel. Going back (in sound and imagination) to the point at which the track had been recorded. Living people, not a record of the event but the event proper.

We remained content with our 252/300 because we knew it was the best we could do for the budget available. The 552/500 didn’t make our system sound broken but it didn’t half sound different. A case of “that sounds really good” verses “oh, so that’s how they did it”.  When funds which could justifiably be sent to HiFi became available the 552 was the obvious candidate (NDS had yet to be born – at least publically). Good though the combination was (more than good enough to stop at) and happy as we would have been to keep it, it was the addition of the 500 which added the degree of grip, transparency, tonal accuracy and timing which transported me back to the joyous revelation I had witnessed some years before at the Naim road show.

But a 500 ain’t cheap and it won’t automatically work in any room with any system, even with a 552 on hand. The final measure of worth is in the ears of the beholder. It worked for us as it has done for many others (but not everyone here). Looking back down the range, you get what you pay for until (according to my ears) you hit the 282/250 and below. I don’t know what a 150 sounds like but I have heard a 152XS at home with the 500. And I thought it sound just astounding for the money. The Jimmy Page of the amp range – brash, sloppy, hugely entertaining and underpinned by tremendous ability. For me the range HAD a hole in the middle. I don’t know if it still does.

One other thing which has always struck me about the Naim range be it amps, sources, whatever, is that as you move up the range you don’t necessarily get more of the same – at least to my ears. Sure you get well nailed timing (perhaps THE common feature) but you can’t predict (and I wouldn’t want to) how a 202 will sound after a 152 any more than a 300 can predict what a 500 will deliver. I don’t think the gifts are incremental or in many cases remotely of the same type.

Bit of a ramble. Sorry.

Interesting stuff Analogmusic.

With regard to point 3. in your post, as you and others have pointed out it wasn't an entirely fair test as the 250DR is still running in and it might also struggle to properly 'drive' the SF Stradivarius which obviously the 500s would have no problem with. Which is possibly why you got more 'satisfying' results when the 250DR was returned to your Dynaudios.

I would be interested to hear about your continued testing. When you carry these additional tests out would you be able to test the 552/250DR versus the 552/500 into your Dynaudios? This would be a more level playing field for the 250DR but I would agree you wouldn't be hearing the best from the 552/500 combo.

I only ask this because I have been amazed at the capability of my 250DR (with a 252 SupercapDR) and it just seems to get better and better. In fact I think it is so good, it could potentially stand up to the 'transparency demands' of the 552, particularly with the SL speaker cables I have now. I am also toying with the idea of sometime in the future going to a 552 and using it with my 250DR for a while until funds permit a move to a 300DR (or who knows a 500DR if my lottery ticket comes in). So your views on the 552/250DR into your Dynaudios (real world speakers) would be of great interest to me if, logistically, it is doable for you.

Hi Analogue.

Very interesting ponts.

It's 2 weeks now  i 'm leaving with  552DR and 250.2.  but forgetting  the initial enthusiasm,

I' m not so sure if this a consistent upgrade from my previous 282.

I'm afraid that, as you found out,  sooner or later  i will have to upgrade to Nap 500 if i want   fully

exploit my chain performance.

Regards

Roberto

HI Nigel my 250DR is 3 months old now, but not being used that much every day, so I have heard of even NAP 500 taking 9 months to run in (Darke Bear said this).

Interesting that I felt the 250 DR did not struggle at all to drive the SF stradivarius at all, the bass was tight and all the good things you read about 250 are true, this amp had total control over the speaker.

In fact both me and the owner of the NAP 500 felt the 250 DR and 500 has almost equal amount of bass grip.

This was different from the 250.2, on the same speaker it just couldn't grip the bass anywhere near the Nap 500.

I will try to test 552/250DR into my speakers, but this will take some time as the owner of the 500 rig will be busy, so will report back when this is done, if we can manage schedules.

However I am not sure I really want to hear a 552 into my speakers , I will be disappointed with my 282 afterwards. If I have learnt anything, try to make your rig work first, and please avoid to listen to the next level if it is not financially doable.

Roberto, I would try a power line on the 250DR, it changes the amp sound and makes it a lot sweeter. I would say it is a "must have" purchase if you have this amp.

rsch posted:

Hi Analogue.

Very interesting ponts.

It's 2 weeks now  i 'm leaving with  552DR and 250.2.  but forgetting  the initial enthusiasm,

I' m not so sure if this a consistent upgrade from my previous 282.

I'm afraid that, as you found out,  sooner or later  i will have to upgrade to Nap 500 if i want   fully

exploit my chain performance.

Regards

Roberto

 

Roberto, I wouldn't agree with you on that one. I had a 552/300 for a while, and much preferred it to any 552/500 system I've heard. The 552/300 makes an excellent pairing, and of course the 300DR will be even better. It's odd that you are still doubtful about the 552: when I added a used one to my then CDS3 and 300 system it was magical from the first second. 

analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard the 252/300 together, but (mostly from your posts over the years Harry), I would now think the true Naim hi-end is really the 252/300 and the 552/500.

282/250 gives you a hint of that, but I think the 252/300 could well be a final amp?

what do you think Harry having owned both now?

Over the years started with Nait 5, then 150 series, 202/200, 282/250, 282/300, 252/300....in a couple of weeks I should be installing the 300DR.....It would be good if this is the final 'amp'...the next (Naim) step up is a pretty significant £ impact.....

Have a good Sunday

Harry posted:

I'm getting a 250 next week to run with a 552. The 250 is my least favourite Naim power amp so it will be interesting to see how it fares in my current system/room. I might be in for a nice surprise.

Harry - I have found that when I have later gone back to Naim prducts that I have not favoured / chosen they actually sound a lot better than I expect - depending in the ancilliares used.

I'm thinking here of the Aro predominantly but also the CD2, 102, 180, 202, 2xHicaps on 82, Superline - essentially products that at one point I have preferred other alternatives,  so I think that I must have then built up some form of negativity to the rejected products.

I hope that you are pleasantly surprised 

analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard the 252/300 together, but (mostly from your posts over the years Harry), I would now think the true Naim hi-end is really the 252/300 and the 552/500.

 

There may be some truth to that statement, but there are some who believe true Naim "high end" really starts and stops with the Statement series.

Chris Dolan posted:

Harry posted:

I'm getting a 250 next week to run with a 552. The 250 is my least favourite Naim power amp so it will be interesting to see how it fares in my current system/room. I might be in for a nice surprise.

 

I hope that you are pleasantly surprised 

I'm expecting this. Don't know if I'm getting a DR 250 but whatever arrives I will be keen to hear what happens. I suspect I have a system that can now show me what I missed with the 250 before. 

I wouldn't want anyone to get put off buying a 250DR based on my thread.

The main message is that with my speakers which are normal ones, and not 45,000 USD speakers, my 282/HCDR/250 sounds fantastic to me. I didn't want an older 2 box NAP 300 which would then be away for another month get that upgraded to DR. (and pay quite a bit of money for that upgrade)

I do like my Dynaudios a lot, but if I were to change them it would possibly only be for Naim Ovators, Kudos or Neat.

These issues I mentioned earlier aren't important to me, about details, but what is fundamentally important is the boogie factor, engagement and dynamics, which the 250DR has (and then some)

The 250DR held the beat and timing as well at the Nap 500. I know because we played the 500 on one channel and the 250 on the other (from the 552) and they both timed equally well.

I'm not really a hi-fi kind of guy, the music needs to be engaging to me first and foremost.

analogmusic posted:

Roberto, I would try a power line on the 250DR, it changes the amp sound and makes it a lot sweeter. I would say it is a "must have" purchase if you have this amp.

 

I already have PL on it. 

On my previous set up, was placed on the 250 then another on HC-DR. Particulary on the latter,

it seemed to work miracles  and more recently on bare Nait XS which i used like intermi solution

before 552.

Regards

Roberto

Hungryhalibut posted:

rsch posted:

Hi Analogue.

Very interesting ponts.

It's 2 weeks now  i 'm leaving with  552DR and 250.2.  but forgetting  the initial enthusiasm,

I' m not so sure if this a consistent upgrade from my previous 282.

I'm afraid that, as you found out,  sooner or later  i will have to upgrade to Nap 500 if i want   fully

exploit my chain performance.

Regards

Roberto

 

Roberto, I wouldn't agree with you on that one. I had a 552/300 for a while, and much preferred it to any 552/500 system I've heard. The 552/300 makes an excellent pairing, and of course the 300DR will be even better. It's odd that you are still doubtful about the 552: when I added a used one to my then CDS3 and 300 system it was magical from the first second. 

Hi Nigel,

Yes i reckon it's a little weird situation, rollercoster performance of run in perhaps ?

Today it seemed much better though.

Regards

Roberto

Interesting I guess but no surprise.  

Confirms to me that my CDS3/XPS/282/250 configuration makes - to these ears - the most superb music but having heard a 552/500 on several occasions it is another level again.  

It's all good (sorry I've said that before!). 

Regards,

Lindsay

PS: Any top level system will sound better on a dedicated radial circuit with PLs.  

analogmusic posted:

I wanted to test my shiny new 250DR against the old NAP 500, driven by NDAC and 552

Well the short story is that the NAP 500 is much superior to the NAP250 DR (no surprises) here.

The 552/500 combination sounds very much like a live band to me, very lively, musical and able to extract the tiniest details.

The NAP250 sounded less detailed, lively as if a veil was put in from of the speakers.

So I was quite disappointed, as my previous test of NAP 250.2 vs NAP 500 showed that the NAP 250 was good in treble details, but lacking the bass authority of the mighty 500.

After getting over my shock, I then remembered that the NAP 500 had a Powerline and some very expensive Vertere DIN-XLR.

So we added a power line to the NAP250 DR and removed the Vertere DIN-XLR from the NAP 500 and then the NAP 250DR gained more detail, and sounded quite good, but still quite a big gap form the NAP 500 in terms of treble and midrange.

On the bass both were actually quite close.

I think getting the 552 without the 500 is not able to do full justice to what the 552 is really capable of.

Interesting test. The speakers were the mighty Sonus Faber Stradivarius

In HI-Fi though there is a masking effect, so when I went home to my 282/HCDR/250DR and added the power line to my 250 DR it sounded quite lovely to me with my Dynaudio X32 speakers, and for now I think I can live at this level for a while.

I will be trying some more tests, 552/500 into my speakers, and then my 282/HCDR/250DR into those SF Stradivarius speakers.

So what is the point of all this thread?

1) if you have a NAP 250DR, the Powerline really made a huge difference to it.

2) If you have a 552/500, 300 or 250, replacing the DIN-XLR with SL or other premium cables will make an audible difference

3) from what I can hear the 552 and 500 really are meant to used together, using a 552 with 250DR simply doesn't get the live music sound that the 552/500 together produce. Or maybe my 250DR still needs to be run in even more, as I don't remember the 250.2 having this issue in details, it just couldn't muster that bass that the 500 can.

4) speakers do count, with such expensive and revealing speakers, which demand the highest level of source and amps, but with much less expensive and costly speakers, my 282/HCDR/250DR sounds lovely to me.

5) I now can understand why Naim have always said to use the better amp on tweeters in active systems.

6) well the 250DR is a 3450 GBP amp and the NAP 500 well, that is a 18000 GBP amp, so it was very good to hear what the extra money buys. 

7) if you can afford it, don't waste time, just buy the 500 series. it is really worth it.

8) NAP 500 has a huge soundstage, bigger than NAP250DR 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well done Analogue music..........what an insightful and worthwhile thread. Time and effort well spent on behalf of us all.

The forum awaits with bated breath for the next instalment.......your analysis of your 250DR against the Statement.

Should I upgrade? 

There are plenty of option to mix and match amps in the Naim range, but I do find the 552/300 to be a particularly good combination. I'm using this ( both DR ) to drive the Scalars to excellent effect.

musicnuttyboy posted:

analogmusic posted:

I wanted to test my shiny new 250DR against the old NAP 500, driven by NDAC and 552

Well the short story is that the NAP 500 is much superior to the NAP250 DR (no surprises) here.

The 552/500 combination sounds very much like a live band to me, very lively, musical and able to extract the tiniest details.

The NAP250 sounded less detailed, lively as if a veil was put in from of the speakers.

So I was quite disappointed, as my previous test of NAP 250.2 vs NAP 500 showed that the NAP 250 was good in treble details, but lacking the bass authority of the mighty 500.

After getting over my shock, I then remembered that the NAP 500 had a Powerline and some very expensive Vertere DIN-XLR.

So we added a power line to the NAP250 DR and removed the Vertere DIN-XLR from the NAP 500 and then the NAP 250DR gained more detail, and sounded quite good, but still quite a big gap form the NAP 500 in terms of treble and midrange.

On the bass both were actually quite close.

I think getting the 552 without the 500 is not able to do full justice to what the 552 is really capable of.

Interesting test. The speakers were the mighty Sonus Faber Stradivarius

In HI-Fi though there is a masking effect, so when I went home to my 282/HCDR/250DR and added the power line to my 250 DR it sounded quite lovely to me with my Dynaudio X32 speakers, and for now I think I can live at this level for a while.

I will be trying some more tests, 552/500 into my speakers, and then my 282/HCDR/250DR into those SF Stradivarius speakers.

So what is the point of all this thread?

1) if you have a NAP 250DR, the Powerline really made a huge difference to it.

2) If you have a 552/500, 300 or 250, replacing the DIN-XLR with SL or other premium cables will make an audible difference

3) from what I can hear the 552 and 500 really are meant to used together, using a 552 with 250DR simply doesn't get the live music sound that the 552/500 together produce. Or maybe my 250DR still needs to be run in even more, as I don't remember the 250.2 having this issue in details, it just couldn't muster that bass that the 500 can.

4) speakers do count, with such expensive and revealing speakers, which demand the highest level of source and amps, but with much less expensive and costly speakers, my 282/HCDR/250DR sounds lovely to me.

5) I now can understand why Naim have always said to use the better amp on tweeters in active systems.

6) well the 250DR is a 3450 GBP amp and the NAP 500 well, that is a 18000 GBP amp, so it was very good to hear what the extra money buys. 

7) if you can afford it, don't waste time, just buy the 500 series. it is really worth it.

8) NAP 500 has a huge soundstage, bigger than NAP250DR 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well done Analogue music..........what an insightful and worthwhile thread. Time and effort well spent on behalf of us all.

The forum awaits with bated breath for the next instalment.......your analysis of your 250DR against the Statement.

Should I upgrade? 

 

 

 

 

I for one found the outcome very helpful. Who would have guessed that the 500 is better than the 250 DR? Search me. 

Analogmusic, Thanks for the write up. Threads like this make me want to forget all about a 282/ 250 as a next amplifier step and - funds permitting - consider 252 [SC] into my NAP200 instead.

Cheers, Chris

Interesting stuff analogmusic. Nice write up. 

thinking back on this test I have some more thoughts.

There is a particular track from a CD called "best audiophile voices vol.2" called better be home soon which has a nice bass guitar. Now on the Linn KDS/KK/Active 350A speakers, the speakers have a iron grip on the bass and it is very clearly audible. You would expect this of an active speaker of this calibre.

The NDAC/552/555 and these SF Stradivari Homage speakers, well the bass (on this track, haven't heard it on other songs at all) doesn't have the same grip, and is very slightly bit boomy. I would never have noticed this though, if i had not heard the active speakers. and I must say it isn't a big deal at all.

Yet with NDAC/552/250DR, the bass was less boomy and (much) closer to the active speaker in terms of the bass. So upgrading the 500 to 500 DR should be quite an upgrade sonically.

I think there has been some talk of the 300DR being as good as 500, but Naim have said the 500 remains superior, and I can clearly understand this, but at the same time the DR upgrades are not to be underestimated either, they bring changes sonically that are really worthwhile.

The 250 DR (seems) to have a darker presentation than both the NAP 200 non DR and NAP 500 (non DR) and is quieter with inky black background. Now this does translate sonically in less treble, but I wonder it that extra treble I was hearing on the NAP 200 and NAP 500 is actually slight distortion/hash which the DR amp does not have anymore.

Christopher, thinking back, I would still now say the Naim hi-end starts at 282 and 250. I don't find it boring and it definitely holds my attention when the music is playing. (in fact a few days ago I kept enjoying the music and delayed the family dinner even though I was quite hungry myself, and my daughter was not pleased at all)

the 282 is a real paradigm shift in the Naim preamps, compared to all the preamps below it, it is easily audible with real spacious sound, imaging, and PRAT.

the 250 is the first regulated amp, and regulation translates into more resolution, grip in the bass and much better midrange (where the music is) compared to the non-regulated amps below it.

I am sticking with my 282/HCDR/250DR for the foreseeable future (with no plans to upgrade to 252/SCDR or 300DR) and I think the 250DR needs more run in so I will play music on it for a few hours a day with the room closed.

This thread was more about the nature of the changes in the DR amp (in this case 250) rather than a 250.2 vs 500 comparison, which on the surface seems pointless, but then it did show me what the extra money buys, while at the same time leaving me quite content with what I have. I do mean this (the part about being content with what I have and that is because it is damn good)

Analogue - your write up is very good but I think there is a risk that even for a bunch of nerds on a hi-fi forum we think about this stuff too much.  I think you're right to stick with 282/250 but from your other thread on 250 run in I sense you're not or may not be entirely content?? 

You are right, the 250DR now sounds just fine to me (although could be a little better), and some days it sounds not so engaging.  Some days it does sound great and I think ok this is it...

24 hours from switch on it sounded amazing, much better than the 200 (in speed and PRAT), and I thought OK so this is what Naim had in mind with their 009 transistors, but then performance started fluctuating and some days very good (but not like that initial 24 hour) and some days, not engaging.

temperature has been fluctuating in dubai a lot lately, but then it is cold in UK too, so not sure it is that.

my 202.200 in another room sounds consistent every day.

anyway waiting for these capacitors to settle down - a bit like watching paint dry.