Supercap DR losing vs Hi Cap DR

Thanks MM. I actually found the SC DR absolutely slowed the pace of the music compared to the HC DR. Yes, conclusion right now is almost certainly to opt for the lower cost HC route given total inability to choose between them in the short timeframe I've got with both boxes. On reflection - I tried to upgrade too many things all at once - ND5 to NDX, 250 to 250DR, HC DR to SC DR. I should have left out the SC and got used to what was already a very new sound from the first two. A lesson to all would-be upgraders with OCD, perhaps!

Of course, servicing depends on accumulated hours, thought I came across some information pointing towards longer servicing periods favoring pre amps over power amps.

Point being a 10 year old amp, borderline.

However, a ten year old pre amp, I suspect SQ ok for now!

"RICHARD DANEADMINISTRATOR

11/2/127:56 AM

As a guideline, 8-10 years, although for some of the latest black kit up to 15 years is possible before a service is required.  However, a drop-off in SQ is usually the best indicator.  My own pre-production NAP250.2 has just been serviced by Naim and sounds a whole lot better than it did.  That's about 10 years old.""

The heat factor favors the pre amps, but nothing wrong with listing a 10 year old 282, who knows you might run across a five year old 252!!!!!!

252/SCDR ain't bad!!!!!

The Armchair QB!!!

eagle3333 posted:

Thanks MM. I actually found the SC DR absolutely slowed the pace of the music compared to the HC DR. Yes, conclusion right now is almost certainly to opt for the lower cost HC route given total inability to choose between them in the short timeframe I've got with both boxes. On reflection - I tried to upgrade too many things all at once - ND5 to NDX, 250 to 250DR, HC DR to SC DR. I should have left out the SC and got used to what was already a very new sound from the first two. A lesson to all would-be upgraders with OCD, perhaps!

I think you hit the nail on the head!

No substitute for expierence, and Patience is virtue!  

At The end of the day, SCDR/HCDR your system appears to be balanced, based on the Naim Audio Control & Power Principals! Nac/Nap

I really enjoy The Naim Sound & The Forum, but foremost, Naim's  resale value is hard to beat!

252/SCDR ain't bad!!!!!

The Armchair QB!!!!!

Eyeballing a recapped upgraded DRed SC, done in 2014 by Naim!

 Patience, no problema, low funds!

Cdx2/282/HCDR/3 x 250.2/Briks

Being an Active Fan, I would have plenty of time to evaluate both PS's, until Snaxo and Burndy enters the equation!

Hence, waiting your outcome!

Enjoy your Music!!!

The Armchair QB!!!

Well - I'm not one to make black and white statements but on this I'm going to.  IF the NDX is anything like the CDX2 then it is twice the player with an XPS - warmer, darker, more resolving.  In fact until I added the XPS I contemplating buying a CD5XS or Meridian just to get a more musical experience.  

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Well - I'm not one to make black and white statements but on this I'm going to.  IF the NDX is anything like the CDX2 then it is twice the player with an XPS - warmer, darker, more resolving.  In fact until I added the XPS I contemplating buying a CD5XS or Meridian just to get a more musical experience.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Excuse me OP, for straying away from your topic, But Strat, knowing my situation, and down the road perhaps picking up an Ndac! 

Would you go XPSDR of 555PS powering my 2008 Cdx2?

Strat - 'warmer' right now would be great so long as it wasn't at the cost of detail. Interesting because I saw a comment elsewhere suggesting the XPS on the NDX resulted in a brighter sound. We've all got different hearing.. Tonight I am only listening with the HC DR and leaving the SC alone!

Well as I said I can't comment on the NDX but on the CDX2 the XPS added resolution and reduced brightness but most just made it more musical.  

XPS vs 555 - the latter wasn't affordable so I never did the test. 

Regards,

Lindsay

eagle3333 posted:

the SC gives more mid range and base, a richer quality that smooths the brightness of the HC and a bigger soundstage - but at the very expensive cost of vocals which, instead of playing up front as they do with the HC, get pulled almost into the background.

but that is where the vocals really should be... correct me if i'm wrong.

i mean, who on earth has intended the vocals to stick out?

music first and the rest goes second.

We'll have to agree to disagree there, Sharik. I want to feel every bit of the vocalist's emotion (and hear the words!) as well as hear the music. For me, songs are as much about what's being sung as they are about the musical accompaniment. Interesting topic, though. It didn't used to be that way when all I owned was a Fidelity UA4 (anyone remember those?!) but now I can hear the detail it's different.

Is that a consistent observation (re vocals placement) accross a variety of recordings?

The reason I'm asking is that the vocal placement realy depends on the mix and the mastering. It should be agnostic to the equipment (to a certain extent of course)

BTW All - I'm listening to Peter Gabriel's live Back to Front London 2013 album and had to give up on the HC because it's making my ears bleed. The SC is doing a much better job of controlling the brightness. And the sound stage is, as expected, huge in midrange and bass - at the expense of pace and vocal visibility. I'm becoming tired of reading myself.

I've read and listened to everyone's sensible advices but I know that what's going to happen here is whichever one I keep I will need something else - either to control a bright HC DR or push the pace/vocals forward with the SC DR. But, to appease you all, not yet; not yet.

Adam - yes, really - across my board. Though sometimes it's less of an issue to me than other times depending on the recording. But vocals are always slower with the SC. Maybe the (ex den') SC isn't up to scratch. The dealer has suggested he'll need to listen to it when it goes back because it should make a bigger difference than I'm reporting.

An interesting obversvation re HiCap...
I think it will be easier to get the vocals out with a right interconnect (i.e. using a SuperCap).

But ultimately - do listen and choose the PS that you like the most. HiCap seems to be the preference for you.

eagle3333 posted:

Adam - yes, really - across my board. Though sometimes it's less of an issue to me than other times depending on the recording. But vocals are always slower with the SC. Maybe the (ex den') SC isn't up to scratch. The dealer has suggested he'll need to listen to it when it goes back because it should make a bigger difference than I'm reporting.

I understand what you're saying - in a way I found that the SuperCap on my 282 makes it sound very relaxed. Not stressed, just very mature. If I compare it to my SuperNait (with Ovators S-400) in the other room, there is the same PRaT, but 282 / SC / 250 is ultimately more.... well... just more...

They are both blindingly fast combos - one is a bit more grown up. That's how I'd describe it.

Yep, well interconnects definitely make a difference. I tried the SC to 250 XLR from an independent and it went brighter and squashed the soundstage. Also - and many won't like this - my dealer sent me some NAC A5 to try. It too sent everything bright and shrank soundstage compared to my 26yr old Linn cable, the designation of which I can't even remember but it's huge, weighs a ton and is semi bi-wired, if that makes sense. I was very dubious about the effects of cables and PSU's on sound. A complete non-believer really. No more.

Just to tease you a bit - I run my 282/SCDR / 250DR with SuperLumina speaker cables.

The best piece of wire I've heard in years. A bit pricey... but worth it....

Yes I'd noticed your cables and the Black Tellurium (sounds like a brand of weed) so I looked them up - err, a bit pricey is an understatement! But good for you. Glad you're happy. I'm looking forward to stopping the fretting and enjoying the music! I'm really not going through all this for a laugh. I actually took yesterday off work to try to sort it - cannot relax 'till I've solved a problem because it just niggles and niggles.. Maybe I need therapy. I def' don't need speaker cables!

The reason I mentioned the SL cables is that they really brought the vocals forward...

But enough of ranting....

My suggestion for now: leave the system in one state for a few days and just enjoy it It is all about music at the end of the day.

Oh groan..!

Hi Eagle. I've had things like this happen before. Upgrades that should sound better but for some reason don't and swapping things in and out just seems to make it all more confusing. I think there's been a lot of good advice in this thread. +1 to the idea of leaving everything to settle down with the SuperCap in place. If it were me I would take as long as I could with it in the system then put the HiCap back in when your return the SuperCap to your dealer. It should be fairly obvious what the right decision is but if it's a close call, the safe option is not to spend the money.

I've only bought one Naim product from new, which was my NDX but that took 3-4 months to flesh out and sound like the model I had on home demo. The sound grew bigger and weightier but it was a slow process. You may find the system a little sweeter and less brash when the 250 has some miles on the clock. I wouldn't expect it to get any brighter. The XPSDR is probably worth a shot when the time is right. That's a great system you have there already! Best of luck :-)

Thanks Goat. Like most of the posts that's excellent advice ad I'm clinging, in particular, to the 'less brash' remark re: 250. Tonight I've bee forced to do a u-turn. I'm lucky enough to be able to play quite loud - and that's how I like it. I had to give up on commitment to the ear bleeding but supremely detailed HC and have now decided to play the SC to death. I'd rather lose a bit of pace and vocal dynamics than suffer pain like that. Pretty poor that it should come to this but there it is. I'll give the 250 2/3 mths to de-brash and then see where I am. Interestingly I never had any of this pre-upgrade from ND5 and 250.2. I loved the sound and only went in search of more detail! I definitely found it but what a can of worms I opened. Beware ye who would follow - it may be a long path! 

Having nearly the same system (albeit NDX/XPSdr/HiLine) and also swapping out a HCdr for the SCdr I can completely agree that the bulk of the improvement comes from the mid to low end of the spectrum (I didn't notice any change in the upper frequencies but the change overall was still amazing). Bass lines gain a much clearer focus and the soundstage suddenly went very 3D fron-to-back.

But a SC does take time to run in. I did not hear the problem with vocals you described but that could be the running in or other things. A couple observations I found:

• Do not find that adding an XPS to the NDX makes it bright. In fact, the opposite. I find this makes it much more analogue source sounding and laid back.
• About 6 months after adding the SCdr, I added 3 PowerLines to the XPS, SC, and 250.2 respectively. That actually brought improvements to the other end of the spectrum (upper mid to high). Might be what you are looking for if you haven't already. But a HiLine should definately come first.

Don't place too much importance on burn-in. Assuming that one has made the correct choice, an upgrade(?) should be musically enjoyable pretty much right off the bat.

In a utopian situation, the SC should deliver better performance/sound, but (and this is the big one), we all have to make compromises with all sorts of factors such as volume levels, equipment, its placement/equipment support and room acoustics. A friend tried the better (?) 555PS with his 272 and preferred the sound of the less expensive XPS - into a DR250.

Componentry balance is important, but more important than that, is what works for you. The bit of kit that sounds right (or best) is right. Just go with your gut instinct. Either the music 'connects' and puts a smile on your face, or it doesn't.

Where possible; use the great freebie which comes with all Naim kit - the knowledge and experience of the dealer network.

Good luck.

John.

eagle3333 posted:

had to give up on the HC because it's making my ears bleed.

which in itself is not the norm... has to do with speakers placement and room acoustics maybe?