Speaker match with 272/250

Perhaps Harbeth 30.1? I bet they would really sound something on your system. I have the P3ESRs with a Qute2 / Nap100 in a small room and they sound sensational. 

I agree on the Harbeth 30.1.  I heard them recently on a demo, driven by some Jeff Rowland gear, and I was blown away...

You also want to consider Sonus Faber Olympica I

I was in a similar situation last year. I had Kans for 8 years, followed by Katans for another 13. The Katans were like "grown up" Kans - similar family sound, but much more rounded, less frantic, and more even handed across different genres of music. For all that, I occasionally missed the communicativeness and intensity of the Kans (I still have both speakers in my attic).

I considered the Majik 109s. I had heard them several times at my dealers, and liked what they did. Ultimately I crossed them off my list because I feared they were merely an incremental improvement on the Katans and, after a couple of decades, I was ready to try something different.

I auditioned a few others. The standouts were the Harbeth P3ESRs and the ATC SCM7s. The Harbeths are a superb speaker, very refined, musical, and insightful, but I found them just a little bit polite. The ATCs won out because they were the only speaker to put a silly grin on my face. Properly set up (the right stands are crucial), I found them to be extraordinarily expressive and engaging. I would say I've had more times when I've been truly moved by my music in the last year than in the previous ten. Downsides? Just as they come into their own at moderate to high volumes, they sound merely very good at low volumes, which is where much of my listening happens these days. And if you're a detail freak, you might find the Harbeths more to your liking.

As always, your room, your system, your ears, etc. In hindsight, it's fascinating how two similar speakers, both excellent, can sound so different from each other.

Good luck with your quest,

Colm

The 272/250DR can take some seriously good speakers, and if you can afford it I'd aim a lot higher than the 109. Although the Momentum, for example, is small it is rear ported and needs to be well away from the wall. You may find that a floorstander that can go near the wall will be more practical. You'll also find that you can get great value buying second hand. If you don't like them after a while you can sell for little or no loss - a sort of extended home demonstration. Exactly how small is this small room?

I forget to add - don't biwire with Naim. 

Belfast Taxman posted:

If I did turn to the Neat's, do you think the Momentums are worth the extra over the Motives, and, finally, does anyone know the additional cost for getting bi-wired versions over the normal Neat's? I already have bi-wired cable (Naim A5)

Bob at Neat will be able to help on that one. Google the phrase Neat Acoustics contact. Like HH, I wouldn't be looking to bi-wire.

Chris

HH/Christopher - re bi-wiring, why not? Please understand that I am not an engineer or audio expert, but my ears, once upon a time about 20 years ago, must have told me that the Kan's sounded better when bi- wired. This was all done with the approval of my local Naim dealer, as long as I used Naim speaker cable (A5).

I do agree that the Neat Momentum's are probably not for my current room (4m x 3m). Floorstanders that can up against walls and corners (or at least near them) - examples please at my budget - say up to £2,000.

I'm not an engineer either. But if you still have the the little metal bi-wire links in the Kan box, you should be able to satisfy yourself that the system has more life when you run just one set of Naca5 from your NAP 250 to the Kans.

Please be very careful to ensure the +ve and -ve from the unused speaker wires don't touch.

Chris

Hi without a hesitation I would recommend the PMC 20.21 - I consider this far superior to the Kan. I have the same pre/power combination and it works brilliantly in a small room ............. this set up will pin you against the wall if required!!!  The 21's will work fairly close to the walls mine are just under 300mm away. If you wish to ditch the stands ..... you could go for the PMC 20.23 as above but with an extra octave in the  base.

Hope this helps enjoy!!!

The 21 is very good indeed: the only issue I found when I tried them with a SuperUniti was that they couldn't quite do what I wanted with the double bass on jazz albums. In the end I bought some 23s. They needed to be about 8" from the wall. That said, in a 3m by 4m room the 21 might be better. I'd be interested in trying some ATCs as well. I've never heard them myself, but being sealed boxes they should work well. Then there are also Naim speakers...

Have you found the links and tried the Kans single-wired on your NAP250 yet?

C.

Belfast Taxman posted:

My thirty old Kan's are looking forward to a well earned retirement. I have a small room only and propose to look only at stand mount replacements. The budget will cover Majik 109's but could be stretched to Neat Momentum SX3i's. 

My problem is that living in Northern Ireland, the auditioning possibilities, especially in the home environment, are somewhat limited.. I have listened to the Majik 109's and they seemed to be a natural successor for a Kan lover, but can I do better?

 If I did turn to the Neat's, do you think the Momentums are worth the extra over the Motives, and, finally, does anyone know the additional cost for getting bi-wired versions over the normal Neat's? I already have bi-wired cable (Naim A5)

Send me an email (address in profile). I've got SL2s I'm happy to let you have a listen to. I'm in East Antrim. Also have a friend in North Down with SBLs and I'm sure he'd oblige as well. 

Willy.

I would try pmc 22 (more bass than 21) and 23 (could be too much bass for small room) and atc scm19 and scm40 (again could be too much for small room). for more classical music or different flavour then harbeth 30.1 might be worth trying but more placement fussy. Pmc in theory should be better than atc at low level listening though I've never heard atc. Pmc do need break in and very slight, if any, toe in to sound their best.

most important to audition these in your own listening room at home.

Belfast,

I recently auditioned Momentum SX3i's on a 282/250.2/HC (pre-DR).  At home, I ran Motive 3s on a NAIT 5si until recently upgrading to a pair of used Naim Allaes.  Let me offer several impressions of the Neats, though your thread is leaning elsewhere.

I love Neats, finding them supremely tuneful and emotionally engaging, working with Naim beautifully.  That said, the Momentums (Momenta?) are much more than a big brother to the Motives.  Both ranges are immensely fun, with big-time boogie factor, producing many smiles and spines a-tingle.  But the scale (and refinement) the Momentums achieve is far beyond the Motive range, to my ears.  Besides being rear ported, the Momentums feature iso-baric loading, which resulted in huge bass and overall scale during my audition.  I can't comment on how resolving they ultimately are because the demo system was a serious mullet.  But yes, they Momentums are in a different league than the Motives, and in my judgement they are worth the additional outlay.

That said, I second Hungry Halibut's concerns about positioning, and am also concerned that such a system would be quite the bone shaker in a small room.  But my are the Momentums fun and a great synergy with your excellent amp in the right room!

Happy hunting,

Mark

Mark

thank you for your post. I am persuaded that the Neat Momentums are a lovely speaker but I would need to upgrade my house to accommodate them. I am not hopeful that SWMBO would see the logic.

I've just realised your 'thirty' year old Kans weren't bi-wirable, hence no response to my prompting.

Chris

• Belfast Taxman posted:

  HH/Christopher - re bi-wiring, why not?

   

  I don't think anyone has answered your question "why not?"

  The basic reason is that if you bi-wire then you are putting two speaker cables in parallel across the amplifier terminals and this changes the load that the amplifier sees, doubling the capacitance and halving the inductance  compared with a single cable. Naim amplifiers used to be very choosy. Reputedly current designs are not so fussy, but nevertheless it isn't recommended to do it.

Chris - you may be right, on reflection I bought them in 1989 so they are only 27 years old but they are definitely bi- wired, which I did a few years later with the encouragement of my local Naim dealer using NacA5 cable. Imo the sound improved as a result.

Dave- thank you for the explanation, I sort of understand what you say although I am no electrical engineer. Are you suggesting that bi-wiring is any way dangerous? I assume not, because I think you would have told me if it was. Again Imo the SQ improved when I did it, even when I accidentally placed the cables into the wrong terminals (causing phase inversion? An interesting effect but I quickly corrected it).

i also assume that I am not invalidating any guarantee on any Naim product. If that is wrong then obviously time for a re-think.

finally I have read others, on different posts, make similar comments about Naim and bi-amps. I have never done this myself but have read that the SQ improvement is more obvious than bi-wiring. I do appreciate that we all have different ears and perceptions, but such discrepancies seem a little surprising.

Older Naim amp manuals used to say something about only using single runs of Naim cable (or twin & earth) I believe. It's a Naim quirk that the amps are designed differently to most other manufacturers. There'll be plenty of people who can explain in detail how and why, but the bottom line is that some kinds of cables could be bad for older Naim amps.

The newer amps are reputedly more tolerant, but nonetheless the design is based around a single run of A5 or electrical equivalent, and either single amps or active amps (ie not passive bi-amping). It's up to you if you're convinced it's better/you want to do it, but most here wouldn't. It changes what's going on electrically speaking in a way that moves away from the design intention, and may cause amps to be unstable.

From  Naim perspective, biwiring etc was a fad that they didn't indulge.

Biwiring isn't dangerous except to the SQ possibly, but with older Naim amplifiers there was a risk of instability which could damage the amplifier. I don't think there is any problem with more recent designs. And connecting one speaker in the wrong phase is bad for SQ, but doesn't do any harm otherwise.

Bi-amping is of course completely different to biwiring and shouldn't be a problem although whether it will actually improve the SQ does depend on exactly what you are doing.

best

David

I would take up Willy's offer to listen to some Naim boundary placement speakers. I use SL2s with my 272/250 and they work very well. The SBl is cheaper and much easier to get hold of though. Of the small, modern speakers, the PMC 21 would be an interesting comparison, at a price between sbl and SL2. If you went for those, don't biwire, but get an extra set of plugs on the speaker end of the cables so that you can lose the nasty biwire links - this is the so-called F connection. Incidentally, it's the optimum way of wiring up your Kans, but if you are moving them on it's not really relevant to you now. 

Or just keep the Kans and get yourself an XPS and another shelf. Job done, and with minimal fannying.

C.

Regarding the biwiring:  those jumpers may degrade the sound of using a single run of cable.  A prefered approach, recommended by many on this forum, is to use an "F" connection or a short jumper made from NACA5.  (I have no experience here, just repeating what I have read on many threads).

Yes Charlie, the jumpers might be a problem. I thought it important first to attempt to establish the merits of single wiring. But it's academic, OP prefers bi-wired. Except would he prefer single-wired with Naim F-connectors?

C.

Belfast Taxman, How did this end?

Chris