272/200 and 272/250DR

analogmusic posted:

so finally I got the opportunity to listen to 272 at home with my 250 DR with a fellow forum member who will also post his findings 

First of all, I do have a 282/HCDR with Hugo, and I liked the 272 as a standalone unit musically, it was instantly likable from the first song.

We didn't get time to test 272 vs 282, but I know how my 282 sounds, and I think Naim got the numbering very spot on. The preamp is about as good as a 282 to my ears, I really struggled to hear much of these "day and night differences", I think there is very little difference between these 2 preamps.

I could very easily live with 272 as my source/preamp.

So we tried 272/100 then 272/200 and then 272/250DR.

The 100 already sounded very good, but the 200 took it to another level of soundstage, bass control, clarity and musicality

Then the 250 DR was added and for me it was a big jump, in even bigger soundstage, bass control clarity and musicality, but also with added realism and textures. one Piano note it was virtually as if the instrument was really in the room

This was confirmed when the 200 was put back in place, the 250DR is really special.

The 272 sounded like a Naim preamp/source, musical, fast, clear and rhythmic above all. 

I really liked the 272.... Now that I have 282/HCDR I won't sell it to get a 272, but if buying from the start I think 272 is the right preamp and source to buy today. 

I wish this were available when I first bought my 202/200, I would easily have bought the 272/200DR or 272/250DR instead. And eventually added a XPSDR later on.

Seriously impressive musically and sonically.

 

 

 

So..............I wonder if the Naim warranty covers the wear & tear your persistent disconnecting, reconnecting, powering off and back on inflicts on your equipment? 

Did the 272 restore that "room rattling" bass you so love? 

I'm not sure Analog's post warrants sarky comments; in fact I'm sure it doesn't. I think it's very refreshing to read someone who owns a 282 saying that the 272 is basically just as good. Considering that the 282 costs £1,000 more, and that the 272 includes a power supply, DAC, streamer and Internet radio, it's quite something, and shows what great value the 272 is. 

I do not have the resources or inclination to do these tests, but I think it should be taken in the sprit it was intended, and I for one will say well done, and I'm sure lots of people will find the thread really helpful. 

I recall saying, when I got my 272/250 last summer, that I think it will be a future classic, and judging by the number of people buying them, it looks as though that is indeed the case. 

Ah, it must be the new Hugo Nigel! 

So be it! Now just give me the bloody xps! 

You're not having mine. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

...when I got my 272/250 last summer.....

Blimey, was it as recent as that?!

Chris

I concur with the opp and HH. I have said the same thing many times over the 272 pre is as good as the 282 and with XPSDR I think the 272 may well have the slight edge, there I've gone and said it and as HH says it is great VFM, and of course as we know it has great synergy with the 250DR, I recently had a dem with the 300DR and all I can say is the 272 is more than up to the job at the front end and is now firmly in my sights as my next upgrade.

I always find these threads interesting and appreciate the time taken to post them. 

Not sure if it was possible but did you compare the 272 DAC to the Hugo? 

Having again heard the 272 today with XPS and with both 250 and 300 into the Sopra 2s I can confirm that far from just holding its own it absolutely thrives in that company.  

As to the 282 it too was also seen as a pretty good match for the 300 - nice choices to have!

I did compare them for a very short while

 the Hugo is excellent but still I enjoyed music through the 272 a lot when it was playing. Plenty of emotion came through. The other forum member preferred his 272.

you get the benefits of the star ground connected internally and the output stage designed by naim

I liked the 272 as a source and as a preamp. 

Also to my ears the 272 soundstage was similar to 282, did the 3D effect (maybe even better) and the music wasn't confined to the speakers. I one point the realism of the 272/250dr one some piano notes really took me by (pleasant) surprise

The vocal performances of this combo was very good and instruments sounded quite realistic "in the room"

before anyone mentions it the musical performances are very good, all the traditional Naim values of Pace Rhythm and Timing are very much there and music was engaging  and emotional. 

I am impressed by the 272 !

Interesting notes.... I do like certain of my Naim digital sources for their Naim  like treatment.. I am thinking CDX2 here.. But I have yet to find a DAC that effectively outperforms a Hugo (that is optimally set up) with its ability to resolve and portray the inner sound or what I call the Mandelbrot effect, and some of my musician buddies whose opinions I value have noticed this too.

So if the 272 can act as pre for your analogue and digital sources including Hugo it could just be right preamp for you.

One thing I have discovered is that you can never have too many source inputs (and of course with the 272one of them being its internal DAC), each source, including those with their own DAC has its own style that can suit music and mood for max enjoyment and after all that is what it is all about isn't it?

Simon

Hi Simon, I won't comment any more on the Hugo as plenty (of good things) have been said over the years. 

Naim need to make a portable DAC like the Hugo, because that is where most of my listening is done nowadays, in my car ! 

But back to Naim.

All Naim sources I have heard, including the 272 specifically, have the ability to make music engaging and enjoyable to listen to.

And I've always maintained that one can never underestimate a Naim source, they are special musically.

I could easily listen to 272 as a source/preamp and enjoy that playing all day long. 

I would also add it is very pleasant to listen to, no harshness, no nasty digital effects, it has Naim "boogie factor" and rhythmic qualities....

But then ... that is expected of a Naim source / preamp. 

Oh sucks, got to make an appointment for a shootout with NDX/SN2 soon.

analogmusic, and what is your view of the 272 analogue inputs .. are they upto the 282? My previous point is that's it is good to have choice of source including devices with their own DAC, at least at SinS towers 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

analogmusic, and what is your view of the 272 analogue inputs .. are they upto the 282? My previous point is that's it is good to have choice of source including devices with their own DAC, at least at SinS towers 

That's really interesting question. How does 272 take in e.g. vinyl (phono) input? I haven't seen so much reference to that so far. 

Simon, for analog inputs (and this is from memory of how Hugo into 282HCDR sounds compared to Hugo into 272) the 272 bare may be very slightly (hardly noticeable, hardly night and day) behind the 282 with HCDR, and this is expected. The HCDR lowers the noise floor quite dramatically, and the internal supply of the 272 doesn't have any DR regulation. But in isolation, with paired with 250DR they both sounded very good to me. There is no rush to get the XPS and 272 can be enjoyed bare for a long long time.

We both know how much the HCDR improves on both the 202 and 282...

Having said that the Hugo into analog inputs of 272 sounded fantastic to me. 

the 272 doesn't need an XPS-DR to play great music, but as we know, all Naim preamps benefit from having a better power supply

looking back to the session yesterday I could easily live with a NAC 272.

Interesting that the 272 bare is judged to 'may be' slightly behind the 282 and Hicap: a combination that is over £2,000 more expensive. I have an XPS on mine, which takes the performance to a completely different level. Listening to Radio 3 on the 272's FM module (£300!) and the sound is just lovely. 

I have a phono input from my LP12 via a Stageline powered by a Hi-cap ( recapped but not DR) going into the 272 with a DIN connect going into Analogue One. Once I had sorted a lack of racking problem with a thick glass plate to separate the Stageline and my 250, the vinyl has started to sound very good to my ears, but then I have never heard a 282 so cannot give you a comparison. I expect things will sound even better when I get some new speakers to replace my old Kan's but even they are producing much improved detail, timing and low end control and extension via the analogue input. Having said that I would assume that for a CD player (CD5xs) a digital input would be better and that the DAC in the 272 would not need a separate external DAC. If that is correct I am assuming my pennies would be better spent on a PS for the CD than say a Hugo?

engjoo posted:

Oh sucks, got to make an appointment for a shootout with NDX/SN2 soon.

Please report here when you do so. This is the direction I'm heading at the moment. I just got to audition NDX vs Naim DAC in my own setup and to my surprise, very much liked how NDX sounds. It's more fun and engaging compared to cleaner and more hifi sound of Naim DAC. Still both sources sound superb, only a matter of taste IMO. NDX can usually be found on the second hand market so it's easy change but to go for 272/250.2 DR you need to buy them new at the moment. It would be a major hit financially to go from my current setup to that and most probably more sidegrade than upgrade, just like NDX vs Naim DAC. 

HH, look at cost of these 2 systems

272/XPSDR

282/HCDR/NDX/XPSDR

I dont have the figures with me but the first one is considerably cheaper.

It is really an easy decision and you did the right thing to buy the 272/XPSDR/250DR.

I previously might have guessed (without hearing it) that 272 preamp is at 202 level, but it is much better than that, it is at 282 level to my ears.

Otherwise Naim would never recommend it to be used with 250 DR and 300 DR.

And it sounds great to me with 250 DR.

The 272 has some of the floating chassis of the top level Naim like CDS3 and NDS Naim really did their best to give every chance for the 272 to sound as good as it does, no shortcuts were taken, and it is easily audible as I liked it from the first song till that last that I played.

Well, i agree with Analogmusic's statements and observations, as i was the person we tested the equipment together.

I own the N272 and the NAP100, and i posted some time back the question on NAP200 vs NAP250DR to partner the 272, as i am considering an upgrade.

I post below my findings are as follows:

1. The NAP100 is an excellent VFM power amp. It probably offers the best VFM in the NAIM power amplifier range, depending of course on the connected speakers.
2. I definitely prefer the sound of the 272 DAC over that of the Hugo. I am glad i finally managed to see and hear the Hugo, but personally, i would not buy one.  I don't like these small devices.  I like the black serene solid boxes 
3. The 250DR will bring tears to the eyes of the listener, which will be generated from the intense emotion the pure quality of the music (clarity, intensity, depth, sound staging) draws.  It certainly had this effect on me, when i was listening to Best Audiophile Voices albums, on Analogmusic's speakers.  It felt as if i was in the centre of the studio during the actual recording.
4. Connecting the B&W PM1 speakers onto the NAP250DR did not result in a significantly better sound than that from the NAP100.  There was a huge difference though when the Dynaudio X32 speakers were used.
   I am not sure why this should happen, moreover the PM1's are more expensive than the X32's.
   I would suggest that one needs really good hungry speakers to realise the potential of the 250DR.
5. The NAP250 sounded similar to a vacuum tube amplifier in the mid and low frequencies.
6. There was a little something i didn't like on the NAP250, but i can not accurately nor definitively say what it was, it is just there in the back of my mind.  I have a feeling it could be the DR effect, that provides this "very clean" sound (black background some call it).  Maybe it is because over the years i got used to the "dirty" sound, i am not sure.  Maybe one needs time to get used to the new sound.
7. Overall i am very happy i did this test.  I am amazed how Naim manage to produce the same sound right through their amplifier range.  Surely there are differences in the quality of the sound, but the sound is the same, like identical brothers of different size.

Musicnuttyboy made the below comment: "So..............I wonder if the Naim warranty covers the wear & tear your persistent disconnecting, reconnecting, powering off and back on inflicts on your equipment?"

Kindly draw my attention in which part of the Naim instruction manual i could find information about this issue, and how the warranty can be affected by "persistent" cable connections and on/off operations. 
Moreover, I would assume that Naim personnel would advice people in this forum if that was to be the case.
However, I do find the comment disrespectful from the respectful member?

I would like to add some additional comments to Paristhea views which are spot on.

1) The slight reservation he has about the 250DR is the same one I have, I believe it still needs to run in more. however this morning when I played it, all the rhythmic elements of a song were clearly there, the music was more propulsive than this weekend, and generally more engaging (i.e. holding my attention) than the weekend audition. it was fun to listen to ! Maybe the unplugging and replugging of Snaic/Din connectors also helped. But for sure that old familiar boogie factor Naim sound that I have known since my Nait XS purchase  was playing this morning and I left for work quite relieved. I hope the run in period is over and the fluctuation in performance is gone now.

2) About the PM1, I could hear what the 250DR brought to that party, but the PM1 is a smallish speaker, and it is the view of our mutual dealer that B&W speakers do have their own strong sound (which is very likeable, by the way) , which tends to slightly mask the traits of Naim electronics. I have owned the B&W 805S for years on end, and I was reluctant to let them go, but as stated by Paris himself the Dynaudio were very clearly showing what each power amp did as we went up the range, and this is less apparent on B&W. You could look at this a number of ways. Personally I have now come to agree with our dealer, and to hear the Naim electronics, a more neutral speaker is better. There are a number of them, but this was demonstrated to me by our dealer with PMC, Naim intros and Ovators, Revel speakers, Sonus Faber and Martin Logans. All sounded good with Naim sources and amps to me. On the other hand the very first time I heard Naim and as a result of it am a lifelong Naim customer, is because I heard them with B&W 805 speakers. In the end, with the benefit of hindsight, I think owning neutral sounding speakers is better.

3) the 250DR does convey emotional aspects of music very well, in fact on one particular song, it really brought tears to a family member in terms how emotional that song was.

4) For me the regulated amps starting from 250DR just being more realism to the musical reproduction, and make voices and instruments sound uncannily real. Simon-in-suffolk (whom I always even up with in agreement - he has excellent ears and ways of describing what is going on) once explained it as the regulated amp have more color saturation, compared to the unregulated 200, which is also fast and dynamic, but with less "color" (imaging turning the color setting on your TV slightly down), and ultimately, less realistic. As simon mentioned, he could not go back to an unregulated amp, and now, neither could I.

5) the regulated amps also have more resolution than the unregulated ones, but of course you have to pay extra !

6) the 272/250DR combo now can replace the 282/HCDR/250.2 as the entry into the Hi-end Naim sound, without going too crazy on the money (Richard Dane once described the 282/HC/250.2 as very good amp, and a taste of Naim hi-end at sensible money). the 272/250DR sounded very much like a Naim amp in terms of boogie and fun, but now with even more realism, texture, and resolution.

7) I have tested my 250 DR with such a massive speaker as the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage, which is drove without breaking a sweat (it didn't get warm or hot at all), so the 250 DR is one powerful amplifier capable of handing pretty much any speaker you can hope to drive it with.  Of course the 300 DR and 500 Dr are even better, but the 250DR is already very capable !

8) Although the 100 is very capable, when compared to the 250DR on the B&W PM1 speakers, the 250DR was clearer in the midrange with voices, and held the music together in a much more solid focus (it has more grip over the speakers), and everything was much easier to follow and enjoy. The 100 plays music very well indeed, but with slight blurring of midrange, less grip on bass and overall as if looking at a movie, but lowering the resolution slightly. The background is not as inky black as the 250 DR.

Excellent post!!! Well done 

The only comment I'd make in response to Paristhea's very informative post, is that I'd not necessarily agree that the 250 needs hungry speakers. I think it can deal with hungry speakers, but it certainly works jolly well with my SL2s, which are an easy load. 

The very black background is a thing I've grown very used to now, especially in combination with the Super Lumina wires - the way notes emerge from silence is rather captivating, and makes for a very absorbing listen.