UPnP server with Last.fm support?

Bubble UPNP works with last and also with Musicmatch lyrics or you can get a UPNP extension for Foobar

Last night I tried different UPnP softwares. I did my audition of NDX with foobar2000 + foo_upnp plugin and it works perfectly but, it won't scrobble to last.fm. Also I installed BubbleUPnP and couldn't get it to work either. I didn't even find a setting for the last.fm support. If you know how to make foobar2000 + foo_upnp to scrobble, that would be my preferred choice. I've been using foobar as my media library for over ten years so I wouldn't mind continuing with it. 

Lastly I installed JRiver Media Center and that was the only application which worked with last.fm and scrobbled everything I played over UPnP. I read some comments that there's some sound quality issues though but that I'll test when the NDX actually arrives. When I spent some time with JRiver, I found out it's actually very good application and highly customizable with tons of features (which you can turn off if not needed). I tested the servers streaming to my Samsung TV, just to figure out the last.fm support from different servers. 

Anyway, all the help would be much appreciated.

I read some thread on another forum (not sure if it's allowed to mention the name) where people discussed about differences in sound quality between different UPnP servers. 

How about here, have you guys found any differences in sound quality between different UPnP servers? 

I'm asking since they mentioned JRIver being worse than for example foobar2000 + foo_upnp. I'll do my own testing when the NDX arrives next week but still it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

UPnP server sound has been covered in a few threads, try a search,   but they are all regarding NAS or similar UPnP media servers like Asset & Minim etc.,   ..........  foobar2000 is not a UPnP server,  its a freeware audio player.

Mike-B posted:

UPnP server sound has been covered in a few threads, try a search,   but they are all regarding NAS or similar UPnP media servers like Asset & Minim etc.,   ..........  foobar2000 is not a UPnP server,  its a freeware audio player.

Hi Mike,

I will use my PC as server and not go for NAS, at least for now. I have my computer turned on always when I'm at home anyways so why buy a separate device for the job. I'm just trying to figure out which server software to go for. Asset is well regarded here but impossible to get the last.fm to work with. 

I'm not an expert when it comes to UPnP technology but I do know something about media players. I'm fully aware that foobar2000 is freeware audio player but there's a plugin for it available called foo_upnp which makes it a fully functional UPnP server and renderer. Check out the components section on their website. You can do pretty much anything with foobar2000, it's highly customizable. 

If JRiver doesn't work well then I might just have to ditch the last.fm. At least for as long as I find a solution to make it work.

OK Patu,  I understand,  but IMO an NDX without a NAS is not the full deal,  like a sports car on winter tyres.    The forum posts on UPnP "sound" agreed that as the UPnP server is only a means of enabling communication between server, renderer & control point, it cannot affect sound - but as usual still some disagreement.  The differences do exist between various NAS, UnitiServe, Mac's & PC's, & now we have the new kid on the block, the Melco.  In my case my Synology NAS beats PC by some margin.  That said perfecting the ethernet made a difference - & don't even think about wireless !!!!  

I have not done much with foobar2000, I played at it & found with NAS, the Naim iRadio & streaming features that it does not fit in with my idea of how I like my music,  I was not aware of foo_upnp.

Keep posting on how the NDX is ........   parhain terveisin

1. In my meandering discovery, excluding RF / EM interference and other such things there are two key areas I have found affect sound quality with my Naim streamer.

1) TCP windowing flow... Different media servers ( and I think this is more to with platform/OS rather than app) appear to communicate slightly differently using different network transport dynamics with the streamer.. This can affect sound, and its effects are similar to what you hear with bad cable dressing or a strained burndy connection, or difference between FLAC and WAV decoding.

2) Transcode libraries. There appear two popular transcode / encode libraries in the UNIX world ( as used by mini servers and embedded systems such as NAS's etc) These two libraries appear to sound different . some platforms allow you to load multiple libraries such that you can select the best sounding one.. MinimServer/Streamer is one such example that lets you choose.

Simon

Thanks for the input!

Mike:

I live in a single room apartment so my PC is under five meters from the NDX and is always on when I'm at home since I use it quite a lot. I really don't see the point for NAS in my situation. Of course I could learn myself to use less PC and start with the help of NAS but still. 

I also wonder the use of switches when I can directly connect the NDX to my router. I use D-Link DIR 868L which should be very capable. 

I bought Chord C-Stream ethernet cables between the PC and router and between router and NDX. I have thrid cable running from wall to router but didn't think that's needed to update from the stock cable (am I wrong?) Not going wireless, don't worry.

Simon:

Thanks, allthough I'm not that familiar with streaming so I don't understand everything you wrote. I will have to try different software when the NDX arrives. I hope JRiver sounds good since it's the only one working with last.fm I tried pretty much all servers mentioned here. 

Hej Patu,  I expect  D-Link DIR 868L is OK.   If it runs 24/192 OK without buffering,  its OK.

C-Stream are good cables,  no need to change the wall to router,  Cat5e will be good.

Good to hear!

Oh and nice touch with the Finnish greeting.

I'll keep you posted when the NDX arrives. It should be here by thursday. 

The NDX is here! Everything worked perfectly straight out of the box. I connected it with the Chord C-stream cables, one from PC to my router and other one from router to NDX. Just in case I ordered one cheap shielded CAT6 cable to replace the current unshielded cable between the router and wall socket.

It's December 2013 unit in flawless condition. It was very cold when I brought it home and connected but still, straight out of the box there's something extremely addicting in the sound. Something which wasn't there with Naim DAC. The sound is even more Naim now, it's difficult to explain. Maybe since now the whole equipment chain is 100% Naim (except speakers of course). With Naim DAC you're forced to use third party transport if you use PC as source. 

I did find one problem with JRiver Media Server though, seek function doesn't work when playing something. It works normally with Asset and foobar2000 + foo_upnp. Any ideas?

Nice addition to your system Patu. After few days on power you can expect to sound even better. It will be interesting  to compare NDX with your previous solution (nDac + usb to spdif converter) and write your conclusions about it...

Very interesting about the Jriver server. Anyone knows any upnp server that supports vtuner steaming?  I am interested in comparing this with iRadio.

Naim's "iRadio" service is provided by vTuner I believe

I'm not sure if I'm losing my mind or what but now when I've experimented with NDX for few days, I've found out minor differences between server software. JRiver would be optimal for usability and with its built in last.fm support but... it sounds different compared to Asset. These two are the ones I've mainly used now and done some comparison. I also found out that JRiver sounded different compared to foobar2000 when I still had my computer connected to Naim DAC via USB to S/PDIF converter. Then the difference was clearly audible even though both programs should pass bitperfect sound with no modifications to the sound. 

With UPnP in play JRiver has slightly better clarity and separation in the sound. Bass hits slightly deeper and at first you'd say it sounds better. But after a while it starts to sound artificial and annoying. There's too much edge in the sound. I've been wondering what's off with the system since it sounds different compared to the audition we did with my friend's NDX. Back then I had foobar2000 + foo_upnp as server and didn't use JRiver. Asset is nice because of its small footprint. It runs silently in the background and does everything needed (except the freaking last.fm support). It sounds more organic. You lose in separation little bit but I feel that it sounds more natural. It doesn't get annoying sounding after a while. 

If I understand your set up,  you are playing it all from PC (?)    if correct I suspect the SQ variations are most likely related to the PC processing effects.     

Yes, from PC. There shouldn't be any processing done. Files are sent in original FLAC format to streamer. I did try encoding to WAV also but couldn't tell much difference there. 

Also while I had all connected through USB, no processing done there either. DSP off, pure bitperfect signal with ASIO output on both players and still difference in sound quality. 

PC is not the best for SQ,   I experimented once to see how it would be with Asset (my NAS does not take Asset),  but NAS gives better SQ & the different UPnP servers that I do have do not affect SQ.

Mike-B posted:

Naim's "iRadio" service is provided by vTuner I believe

That's why I would like to compare it with the service integrated in some dlna server.

It would feel stupid to go for NAS in my case. There's so many factors in streaming I didn't quite understand before I moved in. I really thought this would be a much less painful experience. USB-connection is just easier if you have PC close to the hifi setup. I like how NDX sounds but I'm starting to question my decision here. Let's see what happens. 

OK,  I understand.    I understand using a PC to DAC via USB for web based streaming,  but a PC when you have a NDX & all its abilities is illogical (to me)   Also to build a music collection & some will be large file sizes with 24-bit & DSD & eventually the storage on a PC becomes a problem & a NAS of some sort is a solution.  

I do understand your point but when the PC is always on when I'm at home, it feels illogical to me to have yet another piece of equipment up and running doing the same thing that the PC can do, which is only to store the data. I don't quite understand why storage size would be a problem with PC. You can add multiple HDD's in PC and have tens of terabytes of storage. 

But I do understand that there might be a sound quality difference. If that's true then it would be only reason for me to move to NAS. Maybe the switch would help as first step? It wouldn't cost much and just you'd just need to plug few cables in, no software changes needed. Anyway, I'm starting to believe that everything makes a difference in hifi.