Qb in da house

What I find really clever is that if we are listening to music in the sitting room and then one of us has to cook, the same music can be sent to the Qb at the touch of a button, and the two setups are perfectly synchronised. You can then come back into the sitting room and carry on listening. I didn't think I'd be as pleased with it as I am, which is a very nice surprise.

Keith

With all that impressive kit, do remember that when enabling Multiroom,as I understand it, all the linked systems will play at 48kHz, including the source.

Happy to be proved wrong if anyone has a reference.

Noname in Happy Harrogate

noname posted:

Keith

With all that impressive kit, do remember that when enabling Multiroom,as I understand it, all the linked systems will play at 48kHz, including the source.

Happy to be proved wrong if anyone has a reference.

Noname in Happy Harrogate

 

True, but it would I assume that multiroom is only useful when you're doing stuff around the house. For proper listening you would sit in front of the speakers with multiroom switched off. Besides which, 24/48 isn't that shabby.

Keith

Dear All, 

Thanks for all your comments above.   Thought I would just clarify some facts, as it's one of those networking areas where it can be hard to pick through the facts. 

a. Although the Qb uses 802.11g, this will not cause your internet access to drop to unusable speeds.   In 'mixed mode' (802.11b/g/n and ac) devices on the network the max theoretical speed can be limited (eg. you won't get 150 or 300mbit/sec) but in real world terms the speed of the network will be very similar.     It does not force all devices to work in 'g' mode.    

b. If you have computers in the house and a dual band router (2.4GHz and 5GHz) I would recommend put computers and any video streaming devices to connect on 5GHz.    That way devices that can use a lot of bandwidth are not sharing bandwidth with devices connected on 2.4GHz. 

c. When in multiroom mode, if reception is weak or there is a lot of interference in the 2.4GHz band then this can cause playback dropouts.  Primarily the multiroom clients can only buffer a few seconds worth of audio as it's a realtime stream and hence, if the data cannot be received in time then the audio will drop out.   When not in multiroom then the device buffers many seconds of audio to help ride over these throughput fluctuations. 

d. In the case of the customer who is getting bad wifi dropouts (and also on ethernet), it indicates that unfortunately you may have gained a line fault on your net connection.  To take your Qb out the equation, placing the unit in deep sleep when not in use (press and hold the standby button) will power down the streaming module and will not be present on the wifi or ethernet network.    

e. If the Qb is located in a position where the wifi signal is fringe for reliable streaming, you may find an ethernet over mains kit will resolve the issue.    For example:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-LIN...tarter/dp/B0084Y9N3O

Streaming audio is more demanding than Skype or emails, so can expose weaknesses of reception in some areas of the house.   

I hope this helps and naturally please feel free to contact the Naim technical support team for help on any Muso Qb issues, as some networking issues can be frustrating to diagnose and resolve. 

Best regards

Steve Harris

Group Software Director

Steve,

Are you suggesting that the effect demonstrated here when running a mix of b/g/n/ac devices on an n/ac router does not apply to muso?

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com...-upgrading-to-80211n

The article does not state that all devices would drop to g speed but that there would be an impact on n/ac devices trying to move data on the same radio at the same time. This would obviously be more noticeable with media streaming and downloading rather than regular web browsing. The article was published some time ago but the current advice from smallnetbuilder remains the same: keep legacy devices on a separate network.

Full disclosure: I have a Qb set up on a separate g-only access point as described in the article above and I can stream 24/192 files transcoded to WAV without dropouts and with no impact on other devices connected to a main ac router. It also sounds rather amazing for the size!

Adrian

Saw one in the flesh today at my dealer's. Also had a brief listen.  Must say I was impressed at its Statement-esque looks e.g. the volume control, white-lit logo and base illumination.  Looked a classy bit of kit. I hadn't appreciated how compact it is either, which belies the output it is capable of. I can well understand why they are becoming so popular. 

Adrian_P posted:

Steve,

Are you suggesting that the effect demonstrated here when running a mix of b/g/n/ac devices on an n/ac router does not apply to muso?

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com...-upgrading-to-80211n

The article does not state that all devices would drop to g speed but that there would be an impact on n/ac devices trying to move data on the same radio at the same time. This would obviously be more noticeable with media streaming and downloading rather than regular web browsing. The article was published some time ago but the current advice from smallnetbuilder remains the same: keep legacy devices on a separate network.

Full disclosure: I have a Qb set up on a separate g-only access point as described in the article above and I can stream 24/192 files transcoded to WAV without dropouts and with no impact on other devices connected to a main ac router. It also sounds rather amazing for the size!

Adrian

 

Hi Adrian, 

That article is a bit of a blast from the past (cira 2007) as in context with first generation draft n wifi routers and non WPA2 mode.

802.11ac devices all work in the 5GHz range so are not affected at all.   

802.11n devices operating at 5GHz are also not affected. 

802.11n and 802.11g on the 2.4GHz are but the actual hit is not as bad as that document reports as in practice all modern modems work in mixed mode anyway and WPA is standard encryption nowadays. 

When in mixed mode  the legacy preamble is sent out to tell all devices on the same channel to back off.   The device then transmits its data using standard of choice. 

This article from 2012 gives a good high level overview on what the deal is:

http://www.summitdata.com/blog...-mode-functionality/

Best regards

Steve Harris

Group Software Director

Changing tack for just a moment, I noticed the following in the Mu-so manual, for multi-room streaming. 

Note: The Mu-so local analogue and digital inputs and its Airplay and Bluetooth streaming inputs are not available for multiroom broadcast.

This leaves UPnP and iRadio as sources, but does it also include USB input as source? I'm wondering how to multi-stream (new term?!) non-integrated streaming services e.g. Pandora, Bandcamp to multiple Qbs. The HDX manual calls out USB/iPod as a source, but that input is not explicitly called out as a valid input for mulit-room streaming in the Mu-so manuals.

Thanks,

-Mark

Mark R posted:

Changing tack for just a moment, I noticed the following in the Mu-so manual, for multi-room streaming. 

Note: The Mu-so local analogue and digital inputs and its Airplay and Bluetooth streaming inputs are not available for multiroom broadcast.

 

This leaves UPnP and iRadio as sources, but does it also include USB input as source? I'm wondering how to multi-stream (new term?!) non-integrated streaming services e.g. Pandora, Bandcamp to multiple Qbs. The HDX manual calls out USB/iPod as a source, but that input is not explicitly called out as a valid input for mulit-room streaming in the Mu-so manuals.

Thanks,

-Mark

Hi Mark

See my earlier post https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...50#55067836770379750

Mark

Media iPad connected to a Mu-so for Multiroom streaming. Would be nice if a future version of the Naim app supported slide-over.

Stevesky posted:

Hi Adrian, 

That article is a bit of a blast from the past (cira 2007) as in context with first generation draft n wifi routers and non WPA2 mode.

802.11ac devices all work in the 5GHz range so are not affected at all.   

802.11n devices operating at 5GHz are also not affected. 

802.11n and 802.11g on the 2.4GHz are but the actual hit is not as bad as that document reports as in practice all modern modems work in mixed mode anyway and WPA is standard encryption nowadays. 

 

When in mixed mode  the legacy preamble is sent out to tell all devices on the same channel to back off.   The device then transmits its data using standard of choice. 

This article from 2012 gives a good high level overview on what the deal is:

http://www.summitdata.com/blog...-mode-functionality/

Best regards

Steve Harris

Group Software Director

Steve, I'd say it's the wifi support in the mu-so products that is a "blast from the past"...

As far as the smallnetbuilder article is concerned, the main point is not about the security overhead of non-WPA2 mode but the impact of the header preamble having to be sent at slower rates. However, the expected impact of that does seem to vary depending on which article you read on the subject.

Perhaps the main issue is that an 11g media streaming product like mu-so needs a lot of airtime compared to an 11n device to move its data, so, depending on the router implementation, either the mu-so will stutter or 11n bandwidth will suffer when there are multiple devices moving data on the 2.4GHz radio.

My Qb works fine on the dedicated router I have set up for 11g clients, and this ensures that there are no knock-on effects on 11n devices. It just seems odd to me that Naim could have avoided any adverse performance issues now and in the future by supporting 11n on the Qb.

KRM posted:

noname posted:

Keith

With all that impressive kit, do remember that when enabling Multiroom,as I understand it, all the linked systems will play at 48kHz, including the source.

Happy to be proved wrong if anyone has a reference.

Noname in Happy Harrogate

 

True, but it would I assume that multiroom is only useful when you're doing stuff around the house. For proper listening you would sit in front of the speakers with multiroom switched off. Besides which, 24/48 isn't that shabby.

Keith

Please others report your experiences with your own master streamers, and let's please have a definitive statement from Naim, but from my testing, a 24/96 source file happily playing from UPnP on a wired Mu-so stand-alone will not play when attempting to add a Multiroom client. If confirmed, this is potentially worrying for those configuring their UPnP servers.

 See also any replies that come in from https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...43#55349447268170743

noname posted:

See my earlier post https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...50#55067836770379750

"For everyday listening I have resorted to using an iPad mini connected directly to the USB input of a Mu-so. This does support Multiroom ... Naim have warned me that all this is technically unsupported by Apple, that not all iPad apps will allow it, and it might go away in future IOS updates."

Noname,

Thank you. So USB is possible, but doesn't appear officially confirmed as a source. I wonder why it is different on the HDX manual? 

The Naim streamer multiroom function enables a streamer product to broadcast audio playing via its UPnP™, iRadio, or USB/iPod inputs simultaneously to a maximum of four other streamer products connected to the same wired or wireless network

There's no equivalent active list of inputs for streaming in the Mu-so manuals. I do not currently have a Naim streamer but was interested what multiple Mu-so Qbs could achieve with respect to multi-room (and to compare with Sonos experience). It seems it's early days yet, if your landscape is only Mu-so. 

-Mark

Hi Mark

There's no equivalent active list of inputs for streaming in the Mu-so manuals. I do not currently have a Naim streamer but was interested what multiple Mu-so Qbs could achieve with respect to multi-room (and to compare with Sonos experience). It seems it's early days yet, if your landscape is only Mu-so. 

Do you mean only Mu-so original and not Mu-so Qb? They are now effectively the same as far as input/output and streaming specification is concerned and I have both. Perhaps the difference you see in the HDX manual is that the original Mu-so manual refers only to being a client in Multiroom. This was changed by a firmware update that also allows the original Mu-so to be a server, or master, for Multiroom. This is now what is also implemented in the mu-so Qb as described in the new combined manual.

i suspect that Naim added the paragraph with the specific exclusion of digital, analogue, and AirPlay inputs because I and others had pointed out that this was not clear from the announcements made when the firmware upgrade was released.

My best advice would be to go and speak to an established Naim dealer if there is one near you, rather than buying from a more general retail outlet.

noname posted:

Do you mean only Mu-so original and not Mu-so Qb? They are now effectively the same as far as input/output and streaming specification is concerned and I have both. Perhaps the difference you see in the HDX manual is that the original Mu-so manual refers only to being a client in Multiroom. This was changed by a firmware update that also allows the original Mu-so to be a server, or master, for Multiroom. This is now what is also implemented in the mu-so Qb as described in the new combined manual.

I meant the Mu-so family as, per your points, I believed original Mu-so and Mu-so Qb effectively have same capabilities when it comes to multi-room. The difference I was highlighting on USB is that your post suggested the USB input in Mu-so may not be formally supported by Naim as a streaming source, but the HDX manual clearly highlights USB/iPod as a multi-room streaming source. I wondered why the difference in positioning of capabilities of Mu-so/other streamers if Naim are truly a client to the licensing of Apple and digital input via USB. 

Hi Mark

Your original quote

The Naim streamer multiroom function enables a streamer product to broadcast audio playing via its UPnP™, iRadio, or USB/iPod inputs simultaneously to a maximum of four other streamer products connected to the same wired or wireless network

Which HDX manual did that come from? mCan you supply a link?

Just be careful that you are comparing like with like. We are not talking now about browsing music files stored on an original iPod. When playing from an iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch connected to the Mu-so USB input I use the apps on the device to play. It is this that Naim support say might not be supported by all apps and might change in the future. Naim have no control over that.

noname posted:

 

Which HDX manual did that come from? mCan you supply a link?

It came from the streaming supplement. Link here: Streamer Multiroom Supplement. Perhaps Naim should differentiate between locally stored content and app usage on iDevice over USB in the manuals. 

noname posted:

 Just be careful that you are comparing like with like. We are not talking now about browsing music files stored on an original iPod. When playing from an iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch connected to the Mu-so USB input I use the apps on the device to play. It is this that Naim support say might not be supported by all apps and might change in the future. Naim have no control over that.

Yes, fully aware. I was originally referring to ability to stream via non-native streaming apps e.g. Pandora, Bandcamp, which would have to be driven by external means, of which iDevice app variety seems the only option.

To me, this all relates back to the value inherent in the software platform for streaming; and for that you should ideally be masters of your own destiny while providing content and extensibility. 

Mark R posted:

It came from the streaming supplement. Link here: Streamer Multiroom Supplement. Perhaps Naim should differentiate between locally stored content and app usage on iDevice over USB in the manuals. 

Yes, fully aware. I was originally referring to ability to stream via non-native streaming apps e.g. Pandora, Bandcamp, which would have to be driven by external means, of which iDevice app variety seems the only option.

To me, this all relates back to the value inherent in the software platform for streaming; and for that you should ideally be masters of your own destiny while providing content and extensibility. 

Right. Hence my confusion. That supplement does not refer to the HDX.

The reference to "streaming" also needs to be considered carefully according to the context that Naim and we use it. It has become just too broad a term seeming to include UPnP, the old Naimnet/Streamnet, Multiroom from a Naim box, as well as streaming from an internet service such as the examples you give and many others. I agree with you completely. I would much rather have a solution that gave me the most control of streaming from an internet service. But unfortunately the providers also want control of how you use their apps. They are not obliged to support output from in iDevice via the USB adapter.

Happy listening whichever you you go.

noname posted:

Mark R posted:

It came from the streaming supplement. Link here: Streamer Multiroom Supplement. Perhaps Naim should differentiate between locally stored content and app usage on iDevice over USB in the manuals. 

Yes, fully aware. I was originally referring to ability to stream via non-native streaming apps e.g. Pandora, Bandcamp, which would have to be driven by external means, of which iDevice app variety seems the only option.

To me, this all relates back to the value inherent in the software platform for streaming; and for that you should ideally be masters of your own destiny while providing content and extensibility. 

Right. Hence my confusion. That supplement does not refer to the HDX.

The reference to "streaming" also needs to be considered carefully according to the context that Naim and we use it. It has become just too broad a term seeming to include UPnP, the old Naimnet/Streamnet, Multiroom from a Naim box, as well as streaming from an internet service such as the examples you give and many others. I agree with you completely. I would much rather have a solution that gave me the most control of streaming from an internet service. But unfortunately the providers also want control of how you use their apps. They are not obliged to support output from in iDevice via the USB adapter.

Happy listening whichever you you go.

 

My mistake laid bare: HDX should have read NDX all along. Sorry for the confusion!

Hi all!

First post here after lurking for a couple of years.

Qb has joined it's bigger brother in the Casio household... Multiroom is great! get the occasional drop out from the "secondary unit" and I lose Wifi sometimes when the microwave is on, but apart from that it sounds amazing...

Old Mu-so

New Mu-so

I picked up a Qb for the bedroom earlier in the week. Great sounding little box I have to say! I'm not about to give up the big system, but the Qb is far better than I was expecting. I wanted something for a bit of background late night chilling, but it has a tendency to grab ones attention!

Yes indeed, it's incredibly engaging, and somehow manages to sound very like the main system. When it's on multiroom and I move from the sitting room to the kitchen, I never think that it sounds worse. It is of course, but its Naimyness means I just don't notice. 

Yup, the Naimyness is unmistakable.