Improving Bass Control

Perhaps you need to consider room dimensions/acoustics and speaker design also.

Hi Graham,  was that what had the most profound effect for you, Graham?  Did you change room - speaker design? 

As above. Sure, different amps and speakers will control how and where bass starts and stops to different extents, but the size of your room, the shape of your room, what is in your room and where in your room it is, plus the volume of air moved by the speaker cones and where the speakers are positioned in the room are going to be the most critical factors.  Matching equipment is important but more secondary and not effective if the speaker sets the room off or the room swallows the lower frequencies.

Our current speakers are carefully matched to the room and took us a year of home auditioning to find. Unlike all the speakers tried and rejected, they are not so critical of room position and distance from corners and boundaries. 

We are currently running a different amp while ours is back at base. The bass is inferior without a doubt. But it's still musical and listenable. The speaker is not clashing with the room. And that's the thing one should avoid in the first instance.

Ben00 posted:

- Source Power Supply : the effect of the XPS gives more bass but not necessarily better bass (imho) - maybe the 555PS may better it a lot ?

The last thing you'd want to do is increase ''bad'' bass. The first reason I'd want to spend money on a power supply would be to add grip to the bass. That's just me but it only seems logical.

Obviously the amp will play a part in bass control. Some speakers require more grip than others, you'll need an amp that's capable enough for any given set of speakers. The room is also a big factor. An empty room (no damping), poor speaker positioning and/or simply the wrong speakers for that room will have a negative impact on the bass. Finally source, cables, etc that add coloration to the sound can also have an impact. So basically it's more or less everything.

Good to hear the reply's and it surely makes sense that the room plays a great part in how the air will move around.   Since it is more difficult to change the room (although speaker positioning is just a bit more flexible), it may make sense to treat the room/speaker characteristics as a separate category.  I have a feeling that very few people can pinpoint a specific upgrade that made most impact on bass control.  That makes it all the more an interesting topic to me.

Ben00 posted:

I have a feeling that very few people can pinpoint a specific upgrade that made most impact on bass control.  

 Everything changes the bass but it's nothing compared to what the room does.

If you're looking for grip and start/stop control it's easy. Go straight to 500.

FWIW I used to have a large bookcase (8' x 6') filled with dust collecting books in my listening room. I figured I'd go minimalist and get rid of it along with the ugly CRT TV that sat between my speakers. Well I was happy with the fresh new look until I played some music. It took a lot of rearranging and tweaking to get back to where I was sound wise and I'm I'm still not there yet. Actually I've come to the conclusion that without some form of proper room treatment I'll never get there. It's a work in progress and for me the challenge is to achieve good sound without having my living room look like a recording studio.

Ben00 posted:

Hi Forum !

i would be very interested in finding out when you experienced the greatest improvement in bass control while upgrading.

Would the electronics be top - preamp or amp - or would the cabling have most of the effect - or even the power cable ?

Can we say that most upgrades will provide 'more' bass - but not always 'better bass' ?

 

Couple of thoughts already to spice up the conversation :

- Source Power Supply : the effect of the XPS gives more bass but not necessarily better bass (imho) - maybe the 555PS may better it a lot ?

- Pre-amp PS : the effect of the Supercap over and above the Hicap

- the pre-amp itself : 202-282-252- 552...

- the effect of the Super Lumina interconnects ?  a lot has been said about the SL effects

- power cables : the Powerline ?

Interested in your feedback !

ATB. Ben

Ben,

You left out the mechanical vibration stuff:

   - rack support

   - speaker - floor interface

A resonant, rattling wood furniture shelves can really add "mud" and "blur" to the bass (among other things).  Change to Fraim and all much improved.

I see from your profile you are using a 300DR into B&W 802D's. My honest opinion is that the amp, as good as it is, just doesn't have enough grip, power to do the speakers justice. I don't think anything you do will fully take control of the bass.

You would need to improve your amp to a 500 if you want to stay with Naim, and even then you might never realize the full potential of the speakers. I at one time had a 250.2 into 804's, the amp could just not drive the speakers properly, so I sold the speakers and purchased another brand that suited the amp better.

I have heard other more powerful amp alternatives that can make the 802D's really come alive.

300 drove 802D just fine in our room. No problems. The 500 was a wow! upgrade and if it's maximum grip and transparency you're after then it's a no brainer (subject to audition). It should be good - just look at the price difference!

Having spent a year finding a speaker which worked on the end of our 300 in our lounge, I can say that a 300 is capable of driving and controling the 802D2. But if this speaker needs noticabely more detail/grip/control in its current location when driven by a 300 I'd be inclined to think it's a room match issue.

This post was not meant to deal with a problem I might have guys. . I am fine with my room and setup. And indeed,  I agree with Harry and the Naim and the B&W reps that the 300DR EASILY drives the 802D3. I'd even say that these speakers are easier to drive than the old 804's I had. 

Anyway,  I understand that the 500 upgrade sticks in our minds. 

Curious to hear what some others Jaimee would have to say. 

Ben00 posted:

Hi Graham,  was that what had the most profound effect for you, Graham?  Did you change room - speaker design? 

My room is quite small with a wood suspended floor. To minimise floor vibration ( created by bass resonance usually) I placed my equipment racks and speakers on sand box plinths, which worked. I also use bass traps (homemade) I  have Allaes and isolated the crossover boxes. I tried Kudos S20's but there was some bass boom. If I have to replace the Allaes it would have to be an infinite baffle design or unported speaker such as ATC. Perhaps electronic equipment has a part to play in bass control (resolution, emphasis), but other factors mentioned in the above posts have a bigger influence IMO.

Even if this is a theoretical question, I would strongly advice against upgrading to solve a speciffic problem like  more or better base. You may or may not get it, and ending up in the negative upgraditis trap, meaning you cannot  listen to the system because something is wrong or should be better and you know what that is!  getting a 500 or even statement!

Claus

I've found upgrading amplifier to have the most significant positive affect on the bass in the context of the rest of my system. I remember having a quick listen to the full Statement at UHES through Ovator 600's and the first thing that struck me was the unbelievable control of the bass. 

Mayor West posted:

I've found upgrading amplifier to have the most significant positive affect on the bass in the context of the rest of my system. I remember having a quick listen to the full Statement at UHES through Ovator 600's and the first thing that struck me was the unbelievable control of the bass. 

Besides throwing crazy amounts of cash at the problem there are a number of solutions out there for those who have some time and/or money to fiddle around.

One possible solution would be to use a Naim front end paired with an affordable and muscular power amp. One brand that comes to mind is Odyssey. I've heard their amps a few times and the first thing I noticed was tight bass. The rest sounded equally good. Of course you can do better but at a considerable price.

Another possible solution for someone who has the time and patience would be to get a Mini DSP with multiple subwoofers. Then take a bunch of room measurements, etc until you reach that golden ratio.

For now I don't have enough time/money to spend on getting it perfect so I live with a reasonable compromise: room friendly speakers + small sub.

The room itself is almost totally responsible for bass quality,

H

The room has a huge impact..yes but amp speaker combo is super critical...

Listed from greatest to least impact:

1) room treatment - bass traps (ultra cheap foam)

2) more powerful amp

3) better racking

4) Hiline

5) Powerlines

6) powerstrip

7) outlet/wall socket

I've kept the same speakers with NACA5 throughout these changes so it's been a valid assessment of impacts on bass control to me.

Ben

Looking at your profile you have all the right components for a perfect bass.

From my experiments what brings bass INTO FOCUS, which ultimately what this is all about are:

• Proper support for the components - NAIMs like to sit on glass shelfes 
• Good, but not over the top, power cables - PowerLine is good
• SuperCap va HiCap - I tried both and ended up with a SuperCap - I prefered what it did with bass in my room
• SuperLumina speaker cables - very transparent

Adam

Are you on Fraim or what have you?

Powerlines?

A supercap can have an surprising effect on bass control of a 282 with a 250 and I'd guess a 300 it would be at least as good but if you' later get a 552 it will become redundant so if this is remotely possible think twice.

There is also NDX vs NDS to consider.

If you can get demos to compare the options and preferably try the result at home you can answer for yourself.

I agree the room and placement has the most profound impact on bass quality and resolution for a given speaker. I use infinite baffle (sealed) speakers in my approx 3.5 x 7m listening room with concrete floor and solid walls - albeit one is sound proofed - and there is no noticeable bloat or overhang. Bass is tuneful and double bass plays evenly and bass lines are naturally easy to follow and is sufficiently potent to gently shake the settee if the music requires ... I have demoed many speakers including  ported speakers and in my room many have boomed, bloated or have unnatural bass resonances and/or one note bass.

Room treatments such as bass traps are refinements ( I use them) but it is best to get the fundamental room/speaker as best you can first.

I find amps, cables etc simply improve the resolution, but won't fix a badly coupled room/speaker combination.. 

As said elsewhere on the forum - choose the speaker for your room and work backwards through to the electronics.

Simon

great replies !

Yes, room and placement are very important.  I have noticed remarkable differences while testing a lot of speakers in my room the past week.  for instance, in stead of doing 'the right thing' and move the other (non-tested) speakers completely out of the way, and in order to be able to rapidly switch between speakers, I left two pairs of speakers lined up next to each other.  Wrong thing to do !  the trapped speaker showed bass resonance.  on the old speakers, the bass pressure was a lot more present to the side of the speakers in stead of the front (804's).  i will look up the pressure areas of speakers' cones at some point in time.

thanks a lot for the very-much-to-the-point-answers above.  my gear is on Fraim's with proper cable management.  but I am going to order Powerlines on Monday.  I have totally standard power cables which is likely unjustifiable.  I have some 'cable credits' from the speaker-purchase and will test Tellurium-Highline-SL as a follow-up.  only after that, I might look at electronics again...

again : super feedback.  Muchos  Gracias.

From least effect to greatest

5  cables racks, other tweaks etc.  All these have had only minor effects.

4  Changing my amp

3  Positioning speakers (however if you speakers are very badly positioned this can have more effect than using bass traps).

2  Adding bass traps (a LOT of them -12 in fact).  N.B.  Foam blocks aren't particularly effective in this role; bass traps must have a pressure membrane on the outside to work properly (or alternatively be lightly damped Helmholtz resonators).

1 Using a miniDSP 2x4 to integrate a sub-woofer and provide compensation for room resonances.  This gave the biggest improvement by far.  Note the DSP is ONLY filtering the sub channel: The power amp for the main speakers is connect DIRECTLY to the pre-amp NOT via the DSP unit.

A note on having two sets of speakers in the room:  If all the drive units are on the front they can be "removed" from the room -  in the acoustic sense at least - by putting them face down on the floor and bunging any rear port(s).

Bass control and bass are two different things - but you have to have bass for it to be there to control, whereas it seems to be commonly acceptable to forego bass extension in order for what upper bass there is to be perceived to be in control.
That, assuming the full content of the music is important, is a pity - and apparently can lead to people becoming accustomed to a bass-light balance as the norm, recoiling in horror at 'too much bass' when encountering a full range system, or real life concert hall.

Meanwhile it is impossible to separate the interactive effects of speakers, rooms and positioning of both speakers and listener: all affect bass extension, smoothness and control. However, starting with the premise that what is wanted is full bass, to be controlled adequately, the first requirement is speakers that, in the listening room, extend fully through the audio spectrum of the type of music listened to. (Of course the source must be capable of reproducing the signal without curtailment - some digital sources have been less than brilliant in reproducing bass.)

Then room absorption/reflection characteristics interplaying with speaker and listener will be key factors in terms of control. Then amplifier 'grip' on the speaker. (However, depending on the characteristics of room and speaker, the relative significance of these can vary, so it is not hard and fast as to which will have greatest effect.)

Other aspects are largely to do with resolution and clarity, rather than control of the bass.

Repeating what has been said before, to get good bass it is necessary to start with speakers, and room. Get that right and improvements in the rest of the system will come through.

Personally i have found -and continue to find - that transmission line speaker designs are hard to beat, though of course even they can be variable.

When demoing amps in a ''good'' room I could clearly distinguish which ones had the best grip (tightest bass). Same room, same source, same speakers, same speaker positioning. So while the room is important for good, tight bass you still need good, tight bass to start with. The room can only make things worse, not better. Flab in = flab out X 2.