I have returned to the fold

Posted by: u77033103172058601 on 07 March 2016

Many many years ago, indeed just after we 'went active' with our SBLs, I started experimenting with non-Naim cables for both power and speaker cable; the latter was driven primarily by trying to manoeuvre 4 x 8m lengths of NAC5 cable that just did not want to bend.

Eventually we settled on standard power cables, a dedicated spur of Kimber 8TC,  with Nordost Blue Heaven i/cs and speaker cable. Shortly after moving to Suffolk the BH was replaced with Red Dawn. The spur was the thickest mains cable our electrician was prepared to wire into a dedicated unstitched double socket and I transformed the 8TC into dedicated 2m mains leads for the Naim boxes.

One week, with my wife away in the US on business, I took the opportunity to try out a set of Nordost power cables and settled on Valhalla feeding a block and then Vishnu feeding the major boxes. If I had thought NACA5 was a bit of a so-and-so to keep in check, Vishnu mains leads set the bar even higher. Fortunately all the fettling was undertaken by A&A of Signals. The improvement in sound was obvious and on my wife's return one of her first comments was to query what I had done to improve the system so much. The changes to the system were not what A&A had expected, based on their trials with Nordost and Naim. Without any rational explanation the possibility that my non-Naim sources were part of the reason.

Forward in time and my system had changed only slightly, SuperLine added to replace an Artaxerxes and the 135s replaced by a 300. Both these changes had brought considerable improvements to the system and both my wife and I enjoyed listening to music.

The recent DR upgrade brought a huge improvement to the system and had me (not my wife, though) yearning for more. A home demonstration of a 552 proved to be a big letdown. There was no 'Wow' moment and I, as well as A&A, were confused. 

I had been in correspondence with a fellow forumite and it was he (J.N.; many thanks, John) who suggested that perhaps my choice of a Nordost cable loom could be the culprit. A boring car journey back along the A14 was somewhat alleviated by a long telephone call to A&A and a proposal that they would come to investigate a different cable loom on the system.

It was all approached in a systematic fashion.

1 Take all the Nordost power cables out and replace with standard ‘kettle’ leads. This got rid of some of the glare that was affecting the music we had chosen to be our reference point; we deliberately chose difficult music. We lost a LOT of the weight and authority that had been there. NOT at all pleasant.

2 Put PowerLines on all the Naim boxes, fed from a single Music Works box. This put weight and authority back into the mix and removed some of the glare, it was now possible to listen further into the music.

3 Replaced the Nordost speaker cable with NACA5. This was NEVER going to be a solution because the stuff is so UGLY (we had both forgotten how ugly); we do worry slightly about the aesthetics. However, this did bring further resolution into the music and rhythmic tracks did bounce along. We could have lived with this sound, but not the aesthetics.

4 NACA5 replaced by SL cables. This worked; glare gone, weight and authority in abundance, rhythm, bounce and sheer musicality in abundance. This was way way better than the Nordost starting point 2 hours ago.

The Nordost cabling was never going back into the system long term and we took the decision to buy the PLs and SL speaker cables

At this stage we replaced the 552 with my old 52 and for the next 2 days my wife and I deluded ourselves that we could live without the 552.

The Nordost cabling, which had been so effective on an old very olive system 10 years ago, was shown to be exactly the wrong answer for the later Naim boxes. I am now left wondering at what stage the system started to rebel against Nordost. At least the conundrum from 10 years ago has been laid to rest.

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by ChrisH

Very interesting write up of your evolution, thanks Nick From Suffolk

Just goes to show how invaluable a good dealer can be in helping to work 'stuff' out - seems like you have a great one. They went to a great deal of effort to get to the bottom of your issues, but their efforts were rewarded in the end, also for you! Enjoy your revitalised system, sounds great.

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by Sloop John B

Great post.

Great chaps A&A.

and I love a happy ending.

 

 

SJB

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by MDS

Must have been a frustrating journey at times and glad to learn you've got there in the end.  I very much agree about the benefits of having a knowledgeable dealer.  I think your story also illustrates the benefit of sticking with Naim cabling.  It might not always be fashionable, the PLs are not cheap, and the Super Lumina range is very expensive but you know that it has been developed by Naim to get the maximum performance from Naim kit.  I suspect that also has something of a physiological benefit too since it removes that nagging doubt as the back of one's mind about whether this or that make/range of cable might the 'golden key' to that extra bit of performance we all seek.

  

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by TOBYJUG

Proves that cables and hifi all need to pull in the same direction. Naim cables really are the silver bullet in an all Naim system.

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by Xenasys

We missed you !!!

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by Michael

Excellent write up of an interesting and at times frustrating journey, Nick. The invaluable time and effort of a good dealer cannot be under estimated, we are so fortunate to have A&A of Signals close by. I have gone through an interesting evolution here too moving from standard Naim cables to Powerlines, Hi-Lines and now Super Lumina cables and non DR to a fully DR 500 system over the years. Every step of the way has wrought an improvement. I have always resisted the temptation to dabble in other makes of cables although there are many here who have done so with great success. I firmly believe that Naim does work as a system and the sum of its parts is greater than individual items. We mustn't forget the part Fraim plays too again I see this as an integral part of the system. You and Mrs. Nick would be very welcome to visit Pam and I as we are not so far from you in South West Norwich. 

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by Darke Bear

A good write-up!
A system works at its best if carefully put-together and is definitely not just a set of Equipment boxes connected with generic good cables. The interaction of cables with the design-concepts of the equipment designers does happen and can make or break a system has also been my experience.

As Mike says - don't forget Fraim, as it makes more impact than you would imagine it should, to the extent I'd say in an all-Naim system it is essential.

DB.

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by u77033103172058601

Thanks for the positive comments. My post was meant to highlight some of the trials and tribulations of hifi, that improvements can be held back by previous choices that were clearly a significant improvement. Also, the advice available from helpful forum members and the real benefits of a helpful dealer (although applying that descriptor to A&A of S is almost pejorative).

I will send you a PM, Michael.

DB, your fame as a Naim Expert (not sure that is grand enough) precedes you. I really fear that Fraim is the answer, but we do not have the space for it. 

Posted on: 07 March 2016 by hungryhalibut

When I had some PMC speakers, I found that I preferred Tellurium speaker cables to A5, yet when I changed them for Naim speakers I preferred A5. As you point out, Nick, there is no universal panacea. 

Everything in my system is Naim, apart from the support, and like you, Fraim would be too wide. Is a Naim system 'complete' without Fraim? My hunch is that because it's mechanical rather than electrical, then maybe the impact on the sound signature is less than that of cables, but then again the impact of cables is both electrical and mechanical. Who knows? And if it sounds ok without Fraim it's probably best not to worry about it. 

Posted on: 08 March 2016 by u77033103172058601

Ah, but I will worry. I have spent 62 years worrying about something and sometimes everything.

Posted on: 08 March 2016 by tonym

The perils of reading this forum! Don't worry Nick, there'll always be another "answer", just enjoy your system as it is. Like wot I do...

Posted on: 09 March 2016 by u77033103172058601

Faced with a very wet and miserable day in Norfolk, the only consolation was a long lunch. Whilst enjoying a second pint of Humpty Dumpty (I wasn't planning to drive back to our B&B) our conversation turned to our system and I was somewhat surprised when M suggested that we think about rearranging our lounge in such a manner that would enable the use of Fraim tables! And she doesn't even read this forum.

Posted on: 15 March 2016 by u77033103172058601

Tried the re-arrangement, but from a practical view it was never going to work, so no Fraim.

But got the SL speaker cables tonight and what an improvement to the system. Congested, lacking definition is not something that would normally apply to Nordost speaker cable, but a layer of grunge has been lifted from the system and it is getting even easier to listen into the music to hear all the little interplays between musicians. And I haven't yet contemplated the SL pre-power i/c cables. I must buy more music first.

 

Posted on: 15 March 2016 by hungryhalibut

What stands are you using at the moment?

Posted on: 15 March 2016 by Michael

Glad the SL cables are working well for you Nick.. and they will get better with time.

Posted on: 15 March 2016 by u77033103172058601

Fortunately, the cables are previously owned (the previous owner is moving to active speakers and is taking the opportunity to use shorter lengths) so should not need any breaking in. I do have the original box the cables came in and even that is a thing of beauty.

The equipment sits in/on a Stands Unique (Reference Version) table, which has been extended with additional isolation platforms to provide nearly enough space for the whole system; the TT PSU has to sit on the floor below the TT wall shelf. My last planned action, for a while, is to hear whether removing the S'Cap supplying the SuperLine and powering that component from the 552 powered socket is too big a retrograde step.

 

Posted on: 16 March 2016 by hungryhalibut

I'm not sure I'd want a 552 on a Stands Unique rack, but as you say it does have various upgrades. As Fraim is too wide, had you thought of Hutter, which comes in a 500mm wide version, and is very good. I used it before getting my SVT rack, which is 590mm wide. Both are significantly smaller than the Fraim, and likely to be better than the Stands Unique. Perhaps you could borrow one or the other to try?

Posted on: 16 March 2016 by Michael

My last planned action, for a while, is to hear whether removing the S'Cap supplying the SuperLine and powering that component from the 552 powered socket is too big a retrograde step.

I don't think it will take you too long to discover the answer to that one from what I have read hereabouts.

Posted on: 16 March 2016 by u77033103172058601
Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not sure I'd want a 552 on a Stands Unique rack, but as you say it does have various upgrades. As Fraim is too wide, had you thought of Hutter, which comes in a 500mm wide version, and is very good. I used it before getting my SVT rack, which is 590mm wide. Both are significantly smaller than the Fraim, and likely to be better than the Stands Unique. Perhaps you could borrow one or the other to try?

Hutter was around at the time we bought the SU RMS table and in comparison the Hutter was PIG ugly (my, and M's, opinion of course). The SU table is not the standard version, it has carbon fibre legs within a wood sleeve and a plethora of isolation points.

Michael posted:

My last planned action, for a while, is to hear whether removing the S'Cap supplying the SuperLine and powering that component from the 552 powered socket is too big a retrograde step.

I don't think it will take you too long to discover the answer to that one from what I have read hereabouts.

Yes, I expect that I will conclude that I need to DR the S'Cap! But in the interests of getting all of the boxes in/on the stand, I have to try it.

Posted on: 16 March 2016 by u77033103172058601
Nick from Suffolk posted:
Michael posted:

My last planned action, for a while, is to hear whether removing the S'Cap supplying the SuperLine and powering that component from the 552 powered socket is too big a retrograde step.

I don't think it will take you too long to discover the answer to that one from what I have read hereabouts.

Yes, I expect that I will conclude that I need to DR the S'Cap! But in the interests of getting all of the boxes in/on the stand, I have to try it.

I tried, I heard and it didn't work (well enough). Running the SuperLine from the 552, albeit without the benefit of a Hi-Line as well, was so dull that it was like the days of a Garrard Sp25 with Goldring G800 cartridge (yes, I am that old and my memory is fading). No depth to the sound, a softening of the leading edges and hence reduced dynamics as well as an overall greyness to the tone. The SuperCap has to stay and at 12 years old is coming up for a service, so that will have to be a DR upgrade as well.

 

Posted on: 16 March 2016 by TOBYJUG

Nick

back to your post about changing from Nordost. Nordost cables I have found that they really are not a fit and forget solution. My experience with them - more so with the flat ribbon speaker cables - is that they don't like dust. The anti static spray Nordost makes is essential to their cable ownership. A clean through every month with  it does it ..

hope the super Ls can stand up to dust, they look like they have a similar FEP covering.

Posted on: 16 March 2016 by u77033103172058601

All of my cables get treated, at every system stripdown (at least once per year), to a full clean and treatment with antistatic spray.

Nordost cables worked really well with the old Olive kit, but my system had morphed into an almost entirely later design.