NDX vs. NDX/XPS2

I can't directly answer your question but I am using a bare NDX into a 282/Hicap DR/250 DR and it's still responding well to upgrades.

I've always been a source first person but seem to have broken my own rule!

On the basis of my experience it would be also worth seeing what a HiCap DR brings to the system and compare with the XPS2.

Richard

I can't really comment on the NDX but as the former owner of a CDX2 - adding the XPS transformed it. 

Hi PTCM, I went through this earlier this year, as well as another forum member. This thread might give some insights:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...26#52111725230722326

I now have my XPS2DR and now Im wondering if it really has made that much difference - think Im going through the Running In Blues. The rest of my system is maxed out with SL cabling, powerlines, equipment support, dedicated spur, so maybe the gains for me have not been so great or my head is playing tricks with me or its the running in blues or its my speakers that are limiting the gain....

Seriously though, when I borrowed the well run in XPS2DR in January it did make a good difference, gave a much richer sound, so Im sure Im going to get there, its just taking time with the new one - Ill have to remove it in a month or so just to check!

Youll have to try and borrow one from your dealer to satisfy your own curiosity.

I heard an XPS dr on an NDX hooked up to a SN2 at Audio T Bristol. It transformed it. The music out of the speakers. It was a revelation. Because of what I heard I'm currently saving for an XPS dr to power my CDX2 as my next upgrade. 

As an NDX/XPSdr owner I can say it is a different beast entirely. It takes the NDX from being a great digital source to something altogether nearly analogue sounding.

For the few that think the difference was minor, try the XPS for a week and then remove it. You'll find there's no going back. Of course this makes it a nearly GBP7000 source but then it sounds like it too.

I have no experience with NDX, but have added XPS to CDX (years ago), and XPS2 to nDAC.  The XPS transformed those digital sources in a way that made me so glad I had parted with the considerable cash for the investment.  Adding the XPS cold was an immediate revelation, and the improvement in sound nearly "doubled" in the ensuing week.  

Getting the most from the XPS requires care installing and dressing the Burndy cable.  Read the FAQ about burndy.  Equipment at this level deserves Fraim or something close.  A sloppy rack will deny you the performance of which these boxes are capable.

Charlie

trickydickie posted:

I can't directly answer your question but I am using a bare NDX into a 282/Hicap DR/250 DR and it's still responding well to upgrades.

I've always been a source first person but seem to have broken my own rule!

On the basis of my experience it would be also worth seeing what a HiCap DR brings to the system and compare with the XPS2.

Richard

totally agree with Richard - demo at weekend NDX, 282 (now ordered) HCDR/250DR = the only real wow moment is when the 555PS was added but until then the bare NDX was brilliant with 282/250

IMHO for analog out NDX+XPS2 is better that a bare NDX in every way though (even though I owned it for 2 years) found the NDX rather un-involving and lacking in detail resolution compared to other streamers/renderers and sold it .  Digital out - I also found NDX+XPS2 a lot better than the bare NDX - it was easy to hear the differences between the two in my system (was 282/HC/200 then) though some on here apparently dont think there's much of a difference.

PhilP posted:

it was easy to hear the differences between the two in my system (was 282/HC/200 then) though some on here apparently dont think there's much of a difference.

I think this comment was in response to my post.

That isn't actually the meaning of what I said. I said that when I trialled a well run in XPS2DR earlier this year the difference was clear, thats why I bought the XPS.

But my point was that now I've got my own new one, I wasn't so sure. I thought there could have been a few things at play.

But reading CharlieP's post made me read the FAQ about Burndies and check my cable dressing. (thanks CharlieP!) I realised that there wasn't much room behind my rack and the Burndy in particular was wedged in & stressed, and was definitely not installed as well as it could have been. In fact there was room for improvement in a number of areas! (I have Hutter rack btw. It's not Fraim but it's not too shabby!).

So I dismantled it (all 3 boxes...) moved it all away from the rear wall and rebuilt it paying particular attention to the cable dressing. Bingo! That's what I should have been hearing!

As a relative newcomer to the world of Naim it never ceases to amaze me how much difference a little care and attention to cable dressing can make. I had an issue with my SL speaker cables and now the Burndy, both easily rectified with a bit of tweaking. Just needed to take a bit of care to get it right.

But to come back to the OPs question, bare NDX v NDX+XPS2, yes it does make a good difference. I demo'd it and bought one. See if you can borrow one to have a listen. 

@chrish. My post actually wasn't in response to yours but rather to others who posted that they can't hear a difference between a bare NDX and NDX/XPS into a Hugo (perhaps the design of the Hugo means that it's not sensitive to the difference? I don't know but I can clearly hear the difference using my DAC). I'm pleased that you managed to improve your system by sorting out the cables dressing. As you say, it's surprising what difference this makes. 

No worries Phil, it's easy to jump to wrong conclusions on a Forum which I obviously did!

PhilP posted:

IMHO for analog out NDX+XPS2 is better that a bare NDX in every way though (even though I owned it for 2 years) found the NDX rather un-involving and lacking in detail resolution compared to other streamers/renderers and sold it .  Digital out - I also found NDX+XPS2 a lot better than the bare NDX - it was easy to hear the differences between the two in my system (was 282/HC/200 then) though some on here apparently dont think there's much of a difference.

PhilP and those responded,

Thanks for your experience. For digital out, are you using Ndac or their brand's DAC?

I've tried digital coaxial out to my W4S DSDse DAC. The result was better than I thought, but it lost that PRAT characteristics. Within 5 seconds, you could easily tell it doesn't have that Naim purity.  Also, it doesn't have that slowness presentation that I love anymore.  That said, the resolution is just as good.

I have an NDX + XPS(DR). I hated it for many months and kept removing the XPS to find I enjoyed the music more without it - the NDX had more body, "wholeness" and was more fun without it.  Never one to give up easily, after lot of experimentation with the interconnect (standard / hiline) and power cable (standard/powerline) I found that a Powerline on the XPS DR with an NDX makes it boring, unexciting and unnatural sounding. Your experience may differ, but I've read a lot about people stuggling to work out whether they preferred the NDX with or without XPS and I, for one, found the XPS a stunning improvement once I dumped the powerline.  The most naturally detailed, balanced, musical, listenable and enjoyable source I've owned (I did have a DAC, XPS DR and NDX).

(PS; Powerline is a superb improvement on my Hicap DR + 282, I'm not knocking it, I just worry that people sometimes use it because they hear a change, not a longterm improvement to their enjoyment)

Agree with you Seth. Just because an 'upgrade' exists doesn't mean it will work for you. If it doesn't then that's ok. I'm currently saving for an XPS for my CDX2. I'll obviously get a home demo before I commit, but if it doesn't work for me, that's ok. After hearing what it did to an NDX earlier this year I can't wait to hear it at home. Interestingly I heard it with the standard power cable at Audio T, and they used standard cable at the Naim demo at the Bristol show.

Not knocking the Powerline either. They're brilliant. 

By most accounts, XPS on a CDX2 is one of those "wow!" moments. Keep saving ;-)

Seth posted:

I have an NDX + XPS(DR). I hated it for many months and kept removing the XPS to find I enjoyed the music more without it - the NDX had more body, "wholeness" and was more fun without it.  Never one to give up easily, after lot of experimentation with the interconnect (standard / hiline) and power cable (standard/powerline) I found that a Powerline on the XPS DR with an NDX makes it boring, unexciting and unnatural sounding. Your experience may differ, but I've read a lot about people stuggling to work out whether they preferred the NDX with or without XPS and I, for one, found the XPS a stunning improvement once I dumped the powerline.  The most naturally detailed, balanced, musical, listenable and enjoyable source I've owned (I did have a DAC, XPS DR and NDX).

(PS; Powerline is a superb improvement on my Hicap DR + 282, I'm not knocking it, I just worry that people sometimes use it because they hear a change, not a longterm improvement to their enjoyment)

I have hooked up a XPS2(non DR) to NDX. My experience is similar to yours.  I kind of like it without XPS2, not sure if I need to let it run for another week before giving it up.

I've read a lot of comments suggesting a non-DR XPS doesn't provide the uplift in performance to really hear the benefits, although I've never heard this combination. It could be that, but for me, there's just something about the sound of an NDX on its own that really hits the spot anyway.  Maybe we're just lucky, either way? 

I already have XPS2 (non DR) on NDX for a month.  It has been disappointing. Bare NDX is better to me undoubtedly.

Seth posted:

By most accounts, XPS on a CDX2 is one of those "wow!" moments. Keep saving ;-)

Not here, I have found the better the preamp the less you 'need' the PSU on the CDX2 and NDX and you appreciate the sources as they are. I have now sold my XPS2 and 555PS and use my CDX2 and NDX in transport mode both  natively.

i found the 555PS certainly made my NDX sound a little off and forced highlighting its shortcomings... and the distinctive wow quality of the CDX2 is diluted with the PSUs... again the 555PS highlighting weaknesses in the CDX2.

Yes when I ran a 282 and before a 202, I found  the XPS2 helped fill out the sound from the CDX2.. but this got in the way with the 252 and the CDX2 sounded most distinctive native so I removed the PSU. ( had to buy a new burndy shorting plug for the CDX2 as I had lost it over time....)

However the 555PS on the NDAC seems to be a  superb match that really enhances the NDAC without changing its style.. and this seems to work well with all preamps (although not heard yet on Statement)

1. XPS2 (non DR) on CDX2 is one of those "wow! " moment. To me also yes.  I can still remember very vividly at Naim 's Singapore authorized dealer showroom.  I couldn't believe it was the same CDP. My jaw dropped.  That said, it did not happen with NDX.  Perhap Naim XPS2 performance is optimized with original CDP design, but does not work for network players, at lease true for non DR version according to me.

PTCM posted:

XPS2 (non DR) on CDX2 is one of those "wow! " moment. To me also yes.  I can still remember very vividly at Naim 's Singapore authorized dealer showroom.  I couldn't believe it was the same CDP. My jaw dropped.  That said, it did not happen with NDX?  Perhap Naim XPS2 performance is optimized with original CDP design, but does not work for network players, at lease true for non DR version according to me. 

I fully agree re the CDX2, probably one of the most obvious SQ changes I've ever heard when using the same source.   I don't agree there is no change with NDX,  its nowhere as dramatic as with a CDX2,  it is a step up for sure, but its probably more noticeable when you take it off.   Also my XPS is  .....  err .....  not Naim

I'd expect that result, using either the NDX or the CDX2 as a digital source via an external DAC (still a Hugo fan, Simon?), as they are both excellent digital sources - but the XPS DR adds a great deal of quality to my NDX as an audio source. It's not a revelation, it doesn't suddenly lift any mythical "veils", it geniunely improves the quality of the audio.  Again, if anyone is trying this pairing, PLEASE try it without a Powerline, which makes it sound thinner and a little artificial.

With regard to a non-DR XPS; I would be surprised if Naim didn't use DR technology in the internal NDX power supply, so by using a non-DR XPS, you are probably not really gaining much of a supply improvement.

No offense but the T brand XPS performance does not even come close to Naim XPS2. I had both at one point. For that reason, it's not apple to apple comparison for NDX.  I just removed the XPS2 (non DR) from NDX 20 min ago. The improvement is intantaneous. 

We will absolutely disagree on that one PTCM  ..........  

Seth,

So other than XPS2, what else did you try that improves your NDX?  How about super luminar din to din?  Is your source on NAS or USB?  I found that SSD harddisk thru USB slightly better relative to NAS In terms of resolution and consistency on low frequency department.