Is Tidal changing your buying habits?

I can't remember the last time I bought a CD, certainly not in the past 2 years thanks to Qobuz and Tidal. Before then I would regularly drop £50 or so on Cds on a Saturday afternoon in Fopp or HMV.

I've continued with my Tidal subscription beyond the trial period as I'm quite taken with the concept of having access to a huge catalogue of music, and have "saved" eighty or so albums in "my music", far more than I would have if still buying CD's, so it would seem that I'm spending less than before each month.

However, access to this music continues only as long as I maintain the monthly subscription ad infinitum, and I am still undecided whether the best approach might be to cherry pick my favourites on Tidal, and purchase the CD for subsequent ripping.

Part of the argument in favour of this course of action would be that, if only using Tidal for sampling purposes, I could always change my sub to the cheaper MP3 option.

Dave.

I haven't yet changed my behavior as I still bought a lot. But what I have found is that I start listing to an album on Tidal after I have seen a review. Sometimes this will now mean that I don't buy as I don't like it enough. A good example has been the new mare nostrum from Paolo Fresu. Normally I would have bought it, now I just listened to it.

It has changed the way I go about purchasing any sort of music. In days of yore I quite frequently bought on spec or on the basis of a good review, as long as the likely music fit in with the bounds of my tastes. Now I get the fullest chance to preview almost any purchase. This has led to a much higher "success" ratio in terms of actual purchases I make that I have enjoyed repeated listening to. This is as true for judging whether I like a newly released version of the Brandenberg Concertos as it is for discovering the back catalogue of recording artists that are new to me such as Ebba Forsberg.

yes Tidal is not cheap and yes the SQ is still not as good as vinyl or even CD but for me it is proving its worth on a regular basis

John,

Have you given up on SQ (and the quest for the best) as factors in your listening?

David

David O'Higgins posted:

John,

Have you given up on SQ (and the quest for the best) as factors in your listening?

David

Now David,  that's nearly the Hifi equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife"!

I cleary haven't given up on sound quality, I have a 552 into 300 into SL2, so quite a bit of sound quality there. The quest for best......well maybe that's a different matter.

I'm someone who

• doesn't hear the difference between wav and flac
• doesn't hear the degradation that using Ethernet over power lines adds to the system.
• won't be going SL full loom
• thinks that mastering is far more important than bit depth when it comes to recordings
• thinks that most upgrades at this stage involve nuances

So perhaps the quest for best is indeed behind me and I'm at the keep my system singing phase. 

But I'm finding Tidal a huge challenge as I have always been someone who has been building up a music collection, even when my hifi was lo-fi. For example last night I was listening to a Japan greatest hits CD I had bought recently as part of a job lot. Today in the front room listening to it through Roon into superuniti I started looking at Japan's albums, adding the 2 I preferred best from the hits collection, further clicking through and I'm browsing Sakomoto and reliving Merry Christmas Mr Lawrance. these now show up " in my collection "  

Now I know I don't own these but I'm seriously now wondering whether I have to own them. 

Is it the absolute best audio quality one can get? - most likely not.

Is is still pretty damn good quality into a great amp and speakers? - well yes it is. 

For  some of the albums if I really liked them and knew there was a better mastering indeed I might head to discogs to get it, but as I said I find the difference between Tidal streamed and my own CDs streamed to be "nuanced" at best. 

So so in short, is sound quality still important,  yes  

The quest for best with my hifi has I think stopped or at least stalled, with my music I will seek out the best for a select bunch of recordings but am quite happy with redbook or Tidal for the majority.

SJB  

I haven't ever used any of these streaming services.
I still buy CD's as I still like to have something I can hold, look at, easily read (sometimes with a magnifying glass admittedly) and something physical to keep.
If I hear something interesting on the radio, I will seek out the artist / CD and buy it. If a friend recommends something, I'll usually buy it.
I also like being able to easily look back at my purchases and listen again to them. Yesterday I came heard a track by Tears For Fears on the radio which prompted me to listen to all of their albums. To have zillions of titles available, in all sorts of genres, most of which I'm sure I'd not enjoy, simply doesn't appeal to me.
I guess I'm a bit old fashioned but I also remember people preferring LP's to CD's (not just for the sound quality) because they could pick it up, read the notes and have something physical to actually own.

Sloop John B posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

John,

Have you given up on SQ (and the quest for the best) as factors in your listening?

David

Now David,  that's nearly the Hifi equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife"!

I cleary haven't given up on sound quality, I have a 552 into 300 into SL2, so quite a bit of sound quality there. The quest for best......well maybe that's a different matter.

I'm someone who

• doesn't hear the difference between wav and flac
• doesn't hear the degradation that using Ethernet over power lines adds to the system.
• won't be going SL full loom
• thinks that mastering is far more important than bit depth when it comes to recordings
• thinks that most upgrades at this stage involve nuances

 

So perhaps the quest for best is indeed behind me and I'm at the keep my system singing phase. 

 

... 

So so in short, is sound quality still important,  yes  

The quest for best with my hifi has I think stopped or at least stalled, with my music I will seek out the best for a select bunch of recordings but am quite happy with redbook or Tidal for the majority.

SJB  

 

I can empathise with this. I've tried not to get hooked on 'upgradeitis', instead for many years simply changed things when forced, through failure of some item.  Most recently I had an inheritance, from which I decided that up to £10k upgrading or updating my system would giv me a lasting reminder of my mother every time I play music ( different from the distant memory of 'turn that noise down' I remember from before I left home...!

So I set out to replace my 45 year old speakers, and found something very good for £4k secondhand, then confounded by a dealer offering me something better ex-demo at £10k, making me consider trying to sell the £4k ones at no loss. Against that I counld upgrade to a Hugo TT and gain a remote control while still saving about £4k from my budget of 10, or could do same and upgrade power amps, or alternatively DAVE poteniially comes into contention...

But I have no interest in online streaming, whether from Tidal or Quobuz: Lesser quality free is adequate to decide if I like something, and I am not a 'rental' kind of guy.

Sloop John B posted:

I've had a few Tidal subscriptions and let them lapse, always preferring to buy and mostly preferring to listen to CDs.

Roon's integration with Tidal has prompted me to take out another subscription with Tidal.

So now I'm looking at the 2 roads diverging in the narrow wood and wondering which I'll choose. I'm wondering what those of you who kept up Tidal after the 3 month trial period are now doing. I suppose the question is of equal relevance to those of you using qobuz. Are you willing to move fully over to the streaming / renting paradigm or is it just used to allow you be more selective in your actual physical purchases?

I find when I purchase a new CD, it gets several listens, goes into a recent pile, and then might get some more listens before it's filed away. Then it's very much in the lap of the Gods as to whether it gets another listen. I think I'm beginning to come around to thinking that Tidal can do this for me. But rather strangely I don't know if I'm happy with myself for kind of coming to this conclusion. Have any of the existentialists amongst you grappled with this also?

Sjb...

your point regarding cd's going to the less listened too pile... Illustrates a problem solved vie ripping and nas playback...

"cd" accessibility is both easy and fun, when, from the listening chair one is able to change from one album or song to another or create a playlist...  

Sloop John B posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

John,

Have you given up on SQ (and the quest for the best) as factors in your listening?

David

Now David,  that's nearly the Hifi equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife"!

I cleary haven't given up on sound quality, I have a 552 into 300 into SL2, so quite a bit of sound quality there. The quest for best......well maybe that's a different matter.

I'm someone who

• doesn't hear the difference between wav and flac
• doesn't hear the degradation that using Ethernet over power lines adds to the system.
• won't be going SL full loom
• thinks that mastering is far more important than bit depth when it comes to recordings
• thinks that most upgrades at this stage involve nuances

 

So perhaps the quest for best is indeed behind me and I'm at the keep my system singing phase. 

But I'm finding Tidal a huge challenge as I have always been someone who has been building up a music collection, even when my hifi was lo-fi. For example last night I was listening to a Japan greatest hits CD I had bought recently as part of a job lot. Today in the front room listening to it through Roon into superuniti I started looking at Japan's albums, adding the 2 I preferred best from the hits collection, further clicking through and I'm browsing Sakomoto and reliving Merry Christmas Mr Lawrance. these now show up " in my collection "  

Now I know I don't own these but I'm seriously now wondering whether I have to own them. 

Is it the absolute best audio quality one can get? - most likely not.

Is is still pretty damn good quality into a great amp and speakers? - well yes it is. 

For  some of the albums if I really liked them and knew there was a better mastering indeed I might head to discogs to get it, but as I said I find the difference between Tidal streamed and my own CDs streamed to be "nuanced" at best. 

 

So so in short, is sound quality still important,  yes  

The quest for best with my hifi has I think stopped or at least stalled, with my music I will seek out the best for a select bunch of recordings but am quite happy with redbook or Tidal for the majority.

SJB  

 

I don't often post anything on here but I totally with you on this, good post. 

What does Tidal pay in royalties? more than Sportify?

I have carried on with Tidal after the 3 month trial, even though I am a bit miffed about the cost. BUT I have built a list of 150 Albums, mostly of new artists (to me) in My Music and find myself listening more to these than my 'owned' music downloads and rips. Much of this new music has come from music 'surfing' on Tidal and recommendations (many of which have come from this forum). I then gaze over at the pile of mostly unplayed CDs, many of which I have ripped of course and start to wonder about how my listening and ownership/subscription habits might change in the future. There are of course an larger pile of CDs stored away that will never be played. Food for thought.

The great thing about Tidal (and other premium subscription streaming services) is it allows a thorough 'test' of new music/artists before committing them to a favourites folder (My Music in the case of Tidal). Of course the aim is not to avoid a purchase error as there is no purchase of a particular album involved. It is more to enhance the 'quality' of a music store (My Music) so you don't end up with a huge list of unlistened to music which ends up confusing music selection and wasted time listening to so so stuff. We all have limited time to listen to music so it is important we fill these opportunities with music we really enjoy and spend some of the time properly evaluating new artists and new music. I have bought CDs on the back of a Tidal listen through, but I can count these on the fingers of one hand. So Tidal for me is not about discovery and subsequent CD purchase.

The result of this change in music selection and prioritisation is that the 'quality' of music saved in Tidal is greater than the quality of my purchased music (downloads and CDs). And by 'quality' I mean the level of enjoyment and hence the frequency with which they are played. Don't get me wrong, I still have many downloads and rips I love and will always listen to. The problem is that these albums are far outweighed by the volume of purchase 'mistakes' and I would hate to think how much time and money I wasted on albums I hardly ever (or never) listen to. In reality I tend to have separate sessions either mostly listening to Tidal or mostly listening to downloads/rips via UPnP. There is of course the novelty value of Tidal which is magnified by the fact that Tidal is where I currently discover new music. The 'novelty' appeal of Tidal may subside by the 'music discovery' appeal of Tidal will, I'm sure, remain.

There is another problem however. Although the sound quality of Tidal is good, it does not match the SQ from downloads and rips via UPnP streaming, allowing of course for the usual variability in recording/mixing/resolution/(re)mastering. But the quality of Tidal ain't bad and there is of course the possibility of the higher res Tidal coming on stream soon. That really would be a game changer for me if Tidal could truly rival the SQ of UPnP streaming.

So to summarise, how will my music listening habits change in the future and what part will music subscription services play in all of this? The short answer is I don't know and some of it will depend on how music subscription will evolve in the future, if the SQ from subscription services will compete with say UPnP and indeed if premium services can survive and be affordable. I can however be reasonably sure that my music selection and listening habits will change and if subscription services continue to develop as they have so far, I will almost certainly rely on both owned and subscribed sources for my music. What the balance will be for me, I have no idea.

Interesting - though this scenario is not something I recognise as my taste in music has scarcely changed over the years, with just the one notable exception of having 'discovered' opera about 15 years ago. There will of course be much music I haven't heard, whether around 50 years ago or brand new, simply through not being within my field of hearing over the years, and inevitably that field of hearing of music has tended to be limited as, for example, I have never liked, the majority of 'pop' music so decline to listen to it on the radio, so contact has been predominantly through friends and what caught my interest in record shops when you could pick things to listen before buying. 

However, I have to say that over the years I found music to be so expensive to buy that I restricted purchase to things I really liked, such that when I ripped all my LPs and CDs about 5 years ago I actuallly discarded only a handful as will never play again, and indeed my most frequently played albums include some of my very earliest purchases, which I still appreciate and enjoy very much. Occasionally I have played 'catch up' when a bit of money has been available to buy a 'back catalogue' of albums in one go, most recently that was doing that at the same time as resaeching what resources there were for downloading, including HD, when I  added about 50 albums to my collection in a short space of time, and now I dont envisage adding to my 1000 or so albums either fast or substantially.

To me, these streaming services, whether or not allowing download, seem costly and from the brief look I've had did not suggest to me that they have scores of things I would love to access, so I have no inclination to subscribe to any (in the case of Quobuz, which otherwise seemed to promise much, their browse facility was so poor that I found it frustrating waste of time....)

To the OP, yes it has, I used to have more bum purchases prior to Tidal, now I can often listen or  get more familiar with an artist before I buy.

i still like CDs and yes with CDs I can more accurately be specific with particular masters, whereas on the streaming sites it's more hit and miss.. Also occasionally a CD gets removed from Tidal and you are left high and dry if you don't have a copy.. Ok so far this has only happened twice to two specific tracks, but annoying.. and of course there is often more, wider choice on CD, but the diversity on Tidal is pretty impressive.. even including old recordings of original unaccompanied folk singing from old boys in Suffolk singing in their houses and villages.. a great find that I would not have found if it had not been for Tidal.

As far as SQ, FLAC vs WAV aside, the quality can be almost identical subject to the replay equipment being used  to local streaming media for the same master.. it's the same data.. but masters can sound quite different from each other....

Sloop John B posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

John,

Have you given up on SQ (and the quest for the best) as factors in your listening?

David

Now David,  that's nearly the Hifi equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife"!

I cleary haven't given up on sound quality, I have a 552 into 300 into SL2, so quite a bit of sound quality there. The quest for best......well maybe that's a different matter.

I'm someone who

• doesn't hear the difference between wav and flac
• doesn't hear the degradation that using Ethernet over power lines adds to the system.
• won't be going SL full loom
• thinks that mastering is far more important than bit depth when it comes to recordings
• thinks that most upgrades at this stage involve nuances

 

So perhaps the quest for best is indeed behind me and I'm at the keep my system singing phase. 

But I'm finding Tidal a huge challenge as I have always been someone who has been building up a music collection, even when my hifi was lo-fi. For example last night I was listening to a Japan greatest hits CD I had bought recently as part of a job lot. Today in the front room listening to it through Roon into superuniti I started looking at Japan's albums, adding the 2 I preferred best from the hits collection, further clicking through and I'm browsing Sakomoto and reliving Merry Christmas Mr Lawrance. these now show up " in my collection "  

Now I know I don't own these but I'm seriously now wondering whether I have to own them. 

Is it the absolute best audio quality one can get? - most likely not.

Is is still pretty damn good quality into a great amp and speakers? - well yes it is. 

For  some of the albums if I really liked them and knew there was a better mastering indeed I might head to discogs to get it, but as I said I find the difference between Tidal streamed and my own CDs streamed to be "nuanced" at best. 

 

So so in short, is sound quality still important,  yes  

The quest for best with my hifi has I think stopped or at least stalled, with my music I will seek out the best for a select bunch of recordings but am quite happy with redbook or Tidal for the majority.

SJB  

 

"So perhaps the quest for best is indeed behind me and I'm at the keep my system singing phase."

like this phase. The most important one. Think Its a matter of compromise, the "perfect" system/ feed to the.

Tidal has certainly changed my buying habits, I’ve been able to listen to bands & people I might not have got to hear otherwise. If I like what I hear if possible buy the recording on vinyl or CD or download. It’s opened up a world of so much new music to me, it’s also stopped me on a couple of occasions spending money on albums that I would have bought on spec just because of who the artist was. I would not be without Tidal now, no matter how much domestic disharmony it can create when I order another album.     

For new music or potentially speculative purchases there are of course free services like Spotify and Youtube where certain music can be sampled  to find out if you like it, even though possibly not being able to play at full quality.

I have just cancelled my Tidal sub as the 3 month trial is ending. I've found it useful for sure and as others have said, it's helped me find some excellent new music as well as let me try stuff that I didn't like and that  I might previously have bought on spec and then not played more than once. I think I Tidal offers a lot, albeit at a high price for decent resolution.

so why am I not renewing? 2 major reasons:

1) I listen 50% to classical and Tidal is simply not equipped for this genre.

2) Oddly, Tidals very useful 'try before you buy' value add has simply reminded me that I've not been properly using the same facility already available to me via the family Spotify subscription on our multiroom Sonos system. As others have pointed out here, we all have limited time to listen seriously to our hifi systems and I'd rather spend that time listening to stuff I know to be good rather than experiment during this'd valuable time. I'm happy to sample new artists or albums when I'm cooking, showering, washing up etc and then buy the CD if I like it. I also like the idea of rewarding the artist properly that way too...

I had my streamer upgraded and updated with Tidal by an authorised Naim service provider. Unfortunately after two weeks it had to go to Naim to sort out some issue with the software. 

By the time the streamer is returned, 4-6 weeks I'm told, my Tidal subscription would probably have expired.

Oh, well.