Speakers choice for 282/SCDR/250DR

Sounds like a very sensible woman Adam, I think they look great and sound even better.  They work very well with a 250dr too

dayjay posted:

Sounds like a very sensible woman Adam, I think they look great and sound even better.  They work very well with a 250dr too

She is. Otherwise how would she be able to put up with me for so many years ?

My local dealer was also advocating hard for Sopra No 2.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Music: rock, heavy metal, jazz.

Sound preferences: speed, attack, control of all frequencies (especially bass - since I play bass in a rock band ), clarity of vocals.
I found all that in Ovators S-400 which now reside in my music room. My wife finds them ugly, so unfortunately they will never make their way into the living room.

Same here for Heavy Metal, Rock, I like fast controlled but deep bass , I owned Ovator 400s and for the sake of heresy here I got a bit bored with them in the end, found the bass tight but lacking any drama, and after lots of testing went Focal ;-)

I think the Sopras look mega 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

nigelb posted:

I have the same speakers as the OP and have been pestering my dealer for some time now to assist me in upgrading them. This very wise dealer has been persistent in his advice to get the source and amplification 'right' first and has insisted my speakers would show up all SQ enhancements from a number of source and amplification (pre and power) upgrades. And do you know what he was/is right.

These unassuming speakers (MA GX300) have seen me move in stages from NDX/202/200/NAC A5 to NDS/XPS/252/SuperCapDR/250DR/SL speaker cables and I have heard clearly every magical upgrade and the quality these speakers are able to deliver from some of the best electronics beggars belief. I still intend to upgrade more electronics before upgrading my speakers. Once I have a 555 (hopefully DR) on my NDS I will start to think about the speakers.

So my twopenneth for the OP is that if I had £12k burning a hole in my pocket with his system (which I owned myself at one point in time) I would trade in the NDX and buy exdem/secondhand NDS, 555PS and 252 and then, and only then think about speakers. Heck he already has a SupercapDR ready and waiting for the 252.

Adam, I am sure you didn't want to hear the above but as I have trodden the same path as you so far, I felt duty bound to advise you of my experience with better electronics with the same speakers you have. Why not borrow a NDS and 555 and try them in your system at home if you can. You can then test (partially) my suggestions.

Mind you I always preferred Monkfish to Mullet.

Nigel - you were at the Audiobarn event last Autumn.  Did you not think that the Sopra 2s sounded excellent on the back of the 272/250?  No disrespect to your MAs but I would far rather listen to NDX/282/250/Sopras 2s than NDS/252/300/Neat SX2.

Strat - yes I was at the Audiobarn demo and I very much liked the NDX/282/250DR/Sopra 2 demo, and the Sopra 2s were (unsurprisingly) considerably better with the 300DR.

But having lived with the NDX/282/250(.2 and DR) for some I could clearly hear this combo's 'signature' with the Sopra 2s and I believe, having moved on to NDS/252, the Sopra 2s were capable of much more. I have heard the difference between NDX/282/250DR and NDS/XPS/252/250DR with my underrated MA GX300s at home (not sure where Neat XS2 you referred to came from?) and it is huge. So to sum up, I believe there in more to gain sonically by moving from NDX/282/250DR to NDS/252/250DR using MA GX300s than moving from MA GX300s to Sopra 2s using NDX/282/250DR.

I have heard the change from NDX/282 to NDS/252 but have not demoed the Sopra 2s at home. Therefore the only sensible way Adam can decide whether to go for source/amplification next or speakers next is to demo the Sopra 2s (or other speakers of choice) with his existing system and then demo NDS and/or 252 with his existing speakers.

Adam - if you can face all of this (and have a friendly dealer with all this gear), I would be very interested in the outcome as I too have the Sopra 2's on my shortlist when it comes time to upgrade my speakers. 555PS for the NDS first though. Can't get enough of that Monkfish! 

Add Wilson Sabrina at your list. If you can increase your budget. 

nigelb posted:

Therefore the only sensible way Adam can decide whether to go for source/amplification next or speakers next is to demo the Sopra 2s (or other speakers of choice) with his existing system and then demo NDS and/or 252 with his existing speakers.

Agreed.

Things are starting to take shape here my friends. Clear paths are emerging.

Source upgrade path:

1. Upgrade PS for the NDX - testing over the next fews weeks of XPS and 555PS has been arranged already
2. Upgrade a source at some stage to NDS (clearly 555PS is a logical choice in point 1)
3. This is a fairly obvious path to take

Pre-amp upgrade path:

1. Swap 282 for 252 if and when a good deal presents itself.
2. This one is not so clear cut as opinions are divided on 282 vs 252.
3. I need to hear 252 in my room and judge it for myself.

Speaker upgrade

1. A number of suggestions have been made - given the various distributionn rights in Poland, I will most likely have to ask two dealers for help. But that's ok.
2. I also like this idea of sticking to my current speakers, whilst completeing the above.

Thank you all for invaluable inputs.

Adam

Adam,

Once again I'm going to challenge the orthodoxy - source first - that applies around here.   No disrespect to the MA Gold 300 but they are not in the same league as the Sopra 2s or Neat XL 6.  I run a speaker - the Dyn Contour 1,8 which price wise would be similar to the 300 and I think it would be ridiculous of me to think about a further upgrade of the electronics.  With the 282/SCDR/250 you have £10K+ of amplification - a 252 will be an upgrade but not in the same way changing the speakers will.  My hunch is that if you try a  pair of Sopra 2s on those amps you'll be spell bound. 

True I think you should also invest in a XPS2 to get the best out of the NDX but otherwise ending up with say a NDS/555/252/250DR/MA Gold configuration is seriously out of balance.

Sorry guys.

Regards,

Lindsay

But 'source first' does not mean 'speakers never'. Sorting the source, then the amps, then the speakers is an entirely logical way to go: rather than speakers first and then getting electronics to fit. With the NDS and 252 in place, time can be taken to choose the prefect speaker, rather than choosing them while the electronics are sub-optimal. 

Strat and HH - You are both correct of course.

I was merely outling development stages. In a way all of the paths I've described need to happen so that an informed decision is taken at each stage.

It's like an economic / statistical / mathematical model - we limit a number of variables to a bare minimum. Whilst other are held ceteris paribus, we can determine an outcome and thus infer the impact of a variable. 

Indeed so, though ceteris paribus really should be italicised. Axiomatic and now Latin - the forum is going upmarket. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Indeed so, though ceteris paribus really should be italicised. Axiomatic and now Latin - the forum is going upmarket. 

I stand corrected - ceteris paribus - must be in italics.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Adam,

Once again I'm going to challenge the orthodoxy - source first - that applies around here.   No disrespect to the MA Gold 300 but they are not in the same league as the Sopra 2s or Neat XL 6.  I run a speaker - the Dyn Contour 1,8 which price wise would be similar to the 300 and I think it would be ridiculous of me to think about a further upgrade of the electronics.  With the 282/SCDR/250 you have £10K+ of amplification - a 252 will be an upgrade but not in the same way changing the speakers will.  My hunch is that if you try a  pair of Sopra 2s on those amps you'll be spell bound. 

True I think you should also invest in a XPS2 to get the best out of the NDX but otherwise ending up with say a NDS/555/252/250DR/MA Gold configuration is seriously out of balance.

Sorry guys.

Regards,

Lindsay

 

Or maybe Adam could compare the out of balance configuration with the balanced configuration to see which configuration is more musically satisfying to him given his priorities for music reproduction.

In my experience, given my my priorities, I have usually preferred an out of balance configuration in which an apparently disproportionate amount was spent on source and preamp compared with the power amp and speakers.

But I know which configuration works best for me only because I could compare the alternatives.

In the end, all that matters is the music that reaches your ears. And if getting the best music means £5K+ of amplification and £250 speakers (as it did for me in the early 90s), so be it.

In a nutshell that is the plan, as I am still a 'source first' fan. 

I certainly wasn't advocating source first. Indeed I suggested independently trying source/amplification/speaker upgrades independently, well that was my intention anyway. I do agree with the dilemma over the 282/252 option and I must admit this is not a forgone conclusion - careful home demoing is required. But the NDX to NDS is, IMHO, a no-brainer - but due to the costs involved, careful home demoing is again advised. I am not convinced that sticking an XPS on the NDX will be a game-changer for Adam. Getting yourself an NDS will IMO.

Strat, I don't remember saying that MA 300GXs are in the same league as Sopra 2s - they clearly are not. But they are transparent enough to show what an NDS and 252 can bring to the party - in spades! We are however talking about the best sound per pound investment from where the OP is at present. Let's put our pet beliefs to one side for now and give the best advice we can.

£12k is a lot of money. All I am saying is that there are a number of ways of splashing that cash on audio kit. I'm not sure however that blowing it all on speakers with the OP's current system (no disrespect) is the best way of optimising the SQ enhancement and hence, enjoyment of his system.

My only and lasting suggestion to you Adam is to not take anyone's advice on here and do the leg work. Sorry but from where you are now with your system and where you want to go there are a number of options open to you and the only way to decide is to demo as much kit as you can stomach at home (that is source, pre amp and speakers).

As I have said ad-nausium, if it don't sound posh, don't part with your dosh. Or if you prefer, if it don't sound fantastic, don't flash your plastic.

Have fun.

N

Raidho XT-3. I think they list for more than your budget but I know they sell for less than list here in the states. If your not a bass head then maybe the XT-2 or possibly D2. At least give Raidho a listen if you haven't already. 

For goodness sake, can we all stop recommending our pet speakers to the OP, it is not necessarily the best way of spending his money!

I have at least spent a little time outlining some options open to the OP while others seem happy simply quoting speakers they like.

If I had £12k to spend I would be very choosy who's advice I would take and let's face it there is no shortage of 'advice' on here! 

Having read my post above, it sounds like I am trying to impose my own opinion on this debate. This was not my intention. I simply have gone down a similar path to the OP and genuinely feel that a speaker upgrade is not necessarily the best VFM on sonic grounds.

Let's at least give the OP some options rather than simply recommend our favourite speakers.

As I used to say to my clients as a Management Consultant, when spending money, always decide as if it were your own money. It tends to focus minds towards VFM!

Night night.

Since the title of the thread is speaker choice...

Adam Zielinski posted:

Music: rock, heavy metal, jazz.

Sound preferences: speed, attack, control of all frequencies (especially bass - since I play bass in a rock band ), clarity of vocals.
I found all that in Ovators S-400 which now reside in my music room. My wife finds them ugly, so unfortunately they will never make their way into the living room.

Right, makes it a bit easier.

The one option that comes to mind is the aforementioned Neat XL6. Listened to them just after S-600's, and the main difference is in the attack. The Neat's are hard hitting speakers, possibly because of the isobaric driver layout. The 600's sounded soft in comparison. However, midrange is more recessed on the Neat's. 

Disclaimer for Nigelb: no, I do not own either. In the end I chose another brand, which I would not recommend for heavy metal and hard rock. 

I don't know what brands are available in Poland, I can imagine Neat is not widely available. So if availability is an issue: from the larger brands I would take a listen to a Sonus Faber in that pricerange.

Other brand that might be available and interesting is ProAc. They need a bit of space, otherwise the bass could take over, but usually these are balanced designs that suit your musical preference. 
I would avoid the PMC Fact.8 btw, with heavy rock the treble will sound harsh at least 50% of the time. 

Just start with listening to a couple of speakers. See what you like, and what you don't like. Works from there.

When I searched for new speakers in the 10k Euro price range three years ago, it should have been fun. But it wasn't really. Made a shortlist based on internet research, found out that speakers are not available in my country, dealers being not responsive, not interested or simply not listening, some options turned out to be really disappointing, etc etc. On the other hand, some dealers where really helpful and some options I didn't consider turned out to be interesting.

However, the most important thing I learned, is that you just cannot describe what you like. If I had sticking to my original ideas on sound, I would never considered the speakers I have ended up with. It turned out that other aspects of sound were more important to me that I initially thought. 

Also, do a home demo. Also If it's difficult to do. During my search I've listened to the speakers I ultimately bought, but this dealer had placed them is a very large room. I dismissed them at that time. 

Later, at another dealer, the same speakers where setup in a room similar to mine, and what a difference this made! Bringing them in my house made clear that these where miles ahead of other options. 

Kicking in a lot of open doors, I know. But fundamental for a good choice. The more for a 12k choice...

It is absolutely the case that speakers have the greatest single effect on the character of sound of any system above the most very basic. Therefore, in my opinion, they are actually far more important to enjoyment than any other component. If your pleasure demands hearing  the full frequency spectrum of the  recorded music, with bass uncurtailed, that places demands on speakers and I believe that speakers only start to get decent around £8k new price, so I personally think a budget of £12k is quite reasonable and in no way outclasses the rest of the OP's system. And that budget opens the door to a lot of speakers, especially if not restricted to brand new.

Also, as I'm sure the OP is aware, what we all like in terms of sound can be so different that until or unless you find from experience that you always agree with any particular individual's assessment of speakers you also have heard, all anyone can do is make suggestions for speakers possibly worth auditioning. (Take B&W 802 D3s as an example - some people think they're fantastic: I don't -to me they're OK, and I might be able to live with them if I had to, but I found them simply outclassed by PMC MB2 SE at similar price.)

As for source first argument, it correctly says that you can't get out what you don't put in - however if the speakers don't let out what you have put in the result is the same. If you have very good speakers, any subsequent improvement to source will simply improve the sound they reproduce. My recommendation is to get the best speakers one possibly can early on in building a system, and for those with a tight budget best satisfaction can be from older speakers secondhand.

Turning to the question in hand, personal perception of the sound quality is so subjective that all anyone can do is make suggestions to try to hear. Personally at the bass end  I have yet to hear any speakers perform as well as transmission line designs, therefore I commend PMCs. But as I mentioned on another thread, the character between the differenct PMCs is quite different, and whilst the Fact 12 is impressive for a small speaker, to me it doesnt sound anywhere near as good as the MB2, nor even as good as the  (now discontinued) EB1i, and I liked the Twenty.24 less. Some here have suggested the Fact 8: Given my view of the Fact 12, it is hardly likely to stand up to the competition.  It is worth noting that the bigger PMCs used the fabulous ATC dome midrange for a while, then moved to their own very similar unit that appears to be based on the ATC, with a similar quality of output. If WAF is a major consideration, it is possible that the EB1i would have greater appeal than the MB2, but only infrequently come up secondhand.

Yes, this thread is about speaker choice, but if you believe this could be a mistake with other components more of a priority with regard to improving SQ then surely we should be voicing those opinions. I respect Innocent Bystanders views but I don't agree with them, indeed many (most?) on here would put source/amplification ahead of expensive speakers.

Adam - if I were you I would start talking to some dealers and arrange some demos, at home if at all possible as you are in danger of getting 'advice-overload' on here.

nigelb posted:

Yes, this thread is about speaker choice, but if you believe this could be a mistake with other components more of a priority with regard to improving SQ then surely we should be voicing those opinions. I respect Innocent Bystanders views but I don't agree with them, indeed many (most?) on here would put source/amplification ahead of expensive speakers.

Adam - if I were you I would start talking to some dealers and arrange some demos, at home if at all possible as you are in danger of getting 'advice-overload' on here.

Nigel

All advice here is valuable.

I now have a shortlist of some excellent speakers to test (7 different choices).
I am especially grateful to you for being 'brave' to offer a different point of view. The route and methodology you propose actually makes a lot of sense to me.

A test and upgrade (T'n'U) path is now becoming a little bit more clear in my mind. I already spoke to my dealer this morning and he liked the sequence and the challenge:

1. Power supply for my current NDX
2. Upgrade from NDX to NDS
3. 252 vs 282 (my friendly dealer, knowing my preferences, discourages me from that step)
4. Once the system settles down - start testing new speakers

As to timelines - this one doesn't have any (fortunately or unfortunately )

All the best,

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

nigelb posted:

Yes, this thread is about speaker choice, but if you believe this could be a mistake with other components more of a priority with regard to improving SQ then surely we should be voicing those opinions. I respect Innocent Bystanders views but I don't agree with them, indeed many (most?) on here would put source/amplification ahead of expensive speakers.

Adam - if I were you I would start talking to some dealers and arrange some demos, at home if at all possible as you are in danger of getting 'advice-overload' on here.

Nigel

All advice here is valuable.

I now have a shortlist of some excellent speakers to test (7 different choices).
I am especially grateful to you for being 'brave' to offer a different point of view. The route and methodology you propose actually makes a lot of sense to me.

A test and upgrade (T'n'U) path is now becoming a little bit more clear in my mind. I already spoke to my dealer this morning and he liked the sequence and the challenge:

1. Power supply for my current NDX
2. Upgrade from NDX to NDS
3. 252 vs 282 (my friendly dealer, knowing my preferences, discourages me from that step)
4. Once the system settles down - start testing new speakers

 

As to timelines - this one doesn't have any (fortunately or unfortunately )

All the best,

Adam

 

 

Sounds sensible to me and your dealer is your best friend right now. I understand the 282/252 dilemma but I am pretty sure you will love the NDS.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.