Speakers choice for 282/SCDR/250DR

I'd also, once the NDS is there, be open to the idea of a used 552 (sorry Adam), as well as the idea of used speakers. For example, on another forum someone is selling some ATC active towers, and with the new big Kudos available some T88s might start to appear. 

Yeah, what HH said. 

Life was once very simple.
The best 'audio' I had as a kid, was the only one we could buy. This was Gdansk, Poland, still under a communist rule, in mid-80's. Lech Walesa lived in a block of flats next door....
The choice was limited to 1 (as in one model on a shelf) -  nothing else was on sale then.
I was well chuffed to get a Grundig tape deck. In mono.

5 years later we immigrated to the UK  - imagine my delight at stumbling upon a Linn / Naim dealer. And then a shock - prices were in a stratospheric range - I could barely afford to go to college and uni at that time. But I've said to myself - once day I will have this...
It took me the best part of 20 years to start to realise this dream

Its funny how this audio upgrade grabs you by the ears and never seems to let go. I went a bit sideways to your system build and dropped from NDS to 272 and 250DR for other non audio reasons, and find myself now clambering back to whence I came, addictive it is.

I've decided on this system for box count and the upgrade path that finishes at a reasonable level, at the time the NDS felt like a very hungry beast with upgrading.

Still release a Statement Streamer/Storage/DAC/Pre type all in one thingy and I'll be looking very hard. Damn them :-) 

Innocent Bystander posted:

It is absolutely the case that speakers have the greatest single effect on the character of sound of any system above the most very basic. Therefore, in my opinion, they are actually far more important to enjoyment than any other component. If your pleasure demands hearing  the full frequency spectrum of the  recorded music, with bass uncurtailed, that places demands on speakers and I believe that speakers only start to get decent around £8k new price, so I personally think a budget of £12k is quite reasonable and in no way outclasses the rest of the OP's system. And that budget opens the door to a lot of speakers, especially if not restricted to brand new.

Also, as I'm sure the OP is aware, what we all like in terms of sound can be so different that until or unless you find from experience that you always agree with any particular individual's assessment of speakers you also have heard, all anyone can do is make suggestions for speakers possibly worth auditioning. (Take B&W 802 D3s as an example - some people think they're fantastic: I don't -to me they're OK, and I might be able to live with them if I had to, but I found them simply outclassed by PMC MB2 SE at similar price.)

As for source first argument, it correctly says that you can't get out what you don't put in - however if the speakers don't let out what you have put in the result is the same. If you have very good speakers, any subsequent improvement to source will simply improve the sound they reproduce. My recommendation is to get the best speakers one possibly can early on in building a system, and for those with a tight budget best satisfaction can be from older speakers secondhand.

Turning to the question in hand, personal perception of the sound quality is so subjective that all anyone can do is make suggestions to try to hear. Personally at the bass end  I have yet to hear any speakers perform as well as transmission line designs, therefore I commend PMCs. But as I mentioned on another thread, the character between the differenct PMCs is quite different, and whilst the Fact 12 is impressive for a small speaker, to me it doesnt sound anywhere near as good as the MB2, nor even as good as the  (now discontinued) EB1i, and I liked the Twenty.24 less. Some here have suggested the Fact 8: Given my view of the Fact 12, it is hardly likely to stand up to the competition.  It is worth noting that the bigger PMCs used the fabulous ATC dome midrange for a while, then moved to their own very similar unit that appears to be based on the ATC, with a similar quality of output. If WAF is a major consideration, it is possible that the EB1i would have greater appeal than the MB2, but only infrequently come up secondhand.

 

 

 

 

 

So very well articulated but I should provide some further clarity around my own position.

I'm not an advocate of source first or spesaker first but of synergy. Reference to my own profile will show that actually my system is front loaded but having got to this point if I wanted to significantly improve what I hear I need to look at the speakers to get the most for the $. And how far should we take source first - all the way to Statement?  Absurd I know but how far? 

Now I happen to agree that a NDS would be a significant step, a 252 would be good but perhaps less so and I was I think the first to propose an XPS on Adam's NDX but assuming a good fit with his domestic environment I'll wager, particularly given the already high quality of the amps, that the £12K be best spent on the speakers.

But however it's done - it's all good.

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted

I'm not an advocate of source first or spesaker first but of synergy.

OK then. Let's just say that my 52/250 with a pair of used Kans had greater synergy than the 72/HICAP/250 with a pair of Kabers that I compared it to.

And in that last sentence, "compared" is the operative word. In all my contributions to threads about the relative merits of mullets, balanced systems, and source-first systems, I always encourage the person about to part with their hard-earned to go and compare the radically different approaches that are being proposed. Any good dealer should be able to demonstrate the differences between various combinations and let the customer decide.

YMMV and all that.

Paul Davies posted:

And in that last sentence, "compared" is the operative word. In all my contributions to threads about the relative merits of mullets, balanced systems, and source-first systems, I always encourage the person about to part with their hard-earned to go and compare the radically different approaches that are being proposed. 

 

So have I (see my post from 2 days ago) - who wouldn't?  And of course it will ultimately be the OP's judgement.

But in the context of this thread - which was originally seeking advice on which speakers - and the direction it has taken I have chosen to restate my opinion that given the level of electronics Adam has arrived at I believe he would get best return from upgrading his speakers - albeit I think he should add an XPS.  

First report on testing:

XPS DR and 555PSDR have arrived yesterday. Both are demo versions, so I expect them to be run-in.

XPS went first. Will be running it for the best part of the week, before I swap to 555PS.

First conclusions? The usual borring more of everything, refinded, blah, blah, bla, etc etc etc. In other words: I bloody love it! 

Adam currently has a well balanced system (if you accept the MA GX300s' underrated capabilities). It is also clear that Adam is ready to make a considerable investment which, given he has a very capable new 250 DR and he likes the exuberance of the 282 particularly with rock, is likely to be in a better source or better speakers, both in time. It makes sense, due to the budget available and the long term economies of big steps rather than incremental upgrades, that he will be looking at either a considerably better source (NDS+PS, 552?) or considerably better speakers (Sopra 2s or other similarly priced options) initially with the other upgrade to follow later if I understand Adam correctly.

This first big step will of course unbalance the system until the second (final?) investment. By that I mean if Adam goes for an NDS + PS next he will have a system with Monkfish tendancies until the new speakers arrive - bit like my current system. If he goes for say Sopra 2s first his system will move into Mullet territory until the better source (NDS+PS?) arrives. Nothing wrong with either of these directions, most of us have had an 'unbalanced' system at some point during upgrades. Few of us can afford to upgrade all components at the same time. It is down to whether you prefer to go through a Monkfish phase or a Mullet phase during upgrading.

As I have already stated I prefer Monkfish with a very nice sauce (source). Did you see what I did there? 

N

I tend to camp in the warm tropical waters with the mullet.

It is actually quite surprising how well the MA GX300's are coping. The addition of an XPS was clearly audible and it sounds rather pleasant now.

I would keep the speakers you have and spend 15K on a stand.  Or new cables.  And beer

Adam Zielinski posted:

I tend to camp in the warm tropical waters with the mullet.

It is actually quite surprising how well the MA GX300's are coping. The addition of an XPS was clearly audible and it sounds rather pleasant now.

As I said earlier in the thread, I actually started using the GX300s with a Uniti2, added a 200, then ended up with NDS/XPS/252/SupercapDR/250DR after several upgrades all using these same speakers. The whole system is sounding wonderful and every upgrade I have made to the electronics I have clearly heard the resulting improvement through the GX300s. Once I have the 555DR on the NDS, it will be time to upgrade the speakers.

I believe you will hear a massive improvement if and when you go to the NDS with the GX300s, I know I did. Indeed you are already hearing what an XPS can do on the NDX through the GX300s. I realise the 252 might not be your cup of tea, but again the GX300s clearly showed to me the difference between the 282 and the 252. Which is why I suggested you take the Monkfish route to audio Nirvana.

But you can only decide for yourself, and you know what that entails.

Have fun.

N

...wait til you get the NDS & 555PS on them. You haven't heard the best of the MA's yet 

GregU posted:

I would keep the speakers you have and spend 15K on a stand.  Or new cables.  And beer

Cables are new - SuperLumina. But I like the other two suggestions 

Jason posted:

...wait til you get the NDS & 555PS on them. You haven't heard the best of the MA's yet 

Actually they keep surprising me every day (in a +ve sense of the word)

Adam Zielinski posted:

GregU posted:

I would keep the speakers you have and spend 15K on a stand.  Or new cables.  And beer

Cables are new - SuperLumina. But I like the other two suggestions 

Oooh, I love Beer.

GregU posted:

I would keep the speakers you have and spend 15K on a stand.  Or new cables.  And beer

One of the best pieces of advice I've seen on here, I intend following the beer by myself as I watch the match

Adam Zielinski posted:

First report on testing:

XPS DR and 555PSDR have arrived yesterday. Both are demo versions, so I expect them to be run-in.

XPS went first. Will be running it for the best part of the week, before I swap to 555PS.

First conclusions? The usual borring more of everything, refinded, blah, blah, bla, etc etc etc. In other words: I bloody love it! 

Very interested in how your dem goes between xps dr and 555 ps ? I'm considering the very same options. Keep the updates coming and in the meantime enjoy the music...and beer! and fish....

Golden Ear Triton One speakers are extraordinary for the price, Wilson Audio Sabrina, Revel Ultima Salon speakers. These 3 are very, VERY highly regarded in the USA and all sound stunning. Don't limit yourself to UK speakers only.

Okay - i'm online at Waitrose as I speak  - guys are right I can get a lot of beer for £12K - up market stuff as well - but so far I can't find any wires or Fraim on there! 

Strat - you need some nice Monkfish to go with that beer! £12k should be more than enough to cover it all.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Okay - i'm online at Waitrose as I speak  - guys are right I can get a lot of beer for £12K - up market stuff as well - but so far I can't find any wires or Fraim on there! 

OK - skip the wires and Fraim (strange it's not in the household section). Just get the beers...

wenger2015 posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

First report on testing:

XPS DR and 555PSDR have arrived yesterday. Both are demo versions, so I expect them to be run-in.

XPS went first. Will be running it for the best part of the week, before I swap to 555PS.

First conclusions? The usual borring more of everything, refinded, blah, blah, bla, etc etc etc. In other words: I bloody love it! 

Very interested in how your dem goes between xps dr and 555 ps ? I'm considering the very same options. Keep the updates coming and in the meantime enjoy the music...and beer! and fish....

Couldn't resist... Put the 555DR on tonight. What a mistake! Now I have to figure out, which kidney do I like less...   

The upside is that I have another two weeks of testing. So I can use it. Then they will probably let me keep it untill the new one arrives (the demo version is a sikly 500 series finish, and I need a standard one). So with a bit of luck I have few more weeks before I have to pay.... 

Adam Zielinski posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

First report on testing:

XPS DR and 555PSDR have arrived yesterday. Both are demo versions, so I expect them to be run-in.

XPS went first. Will be running it for the best part of the week, before I swap to 555PS.

First conclusions? The usual borring more of everything, refinded, blah, blah, bla, etc etc etc. In other words: I bloody love it! 

Very interested in how your dem goes between xps dr and 555 ps ? I'm considering the very same options. Keep the updates coming and in the meantime enjoy the music...and beer! and fish....

Couldn't resist... Put the 555DR on tonight. What a mistake! Now I have to figure out, which kidney do I like less...   

The upside is that I have another two weeks of testing. So I can use it. Then they will probably let me keep it untill the new one arrives (the demo version is a sikly 500 series finish, and I need a standard one). So with a bit of luck I have few more weeks before I have to pay.... 

Wish you hadn't told us about the 555DR. Bet you never thought the GX300s could ever sound so good. I am gonna have to get one of those bad boys myself but I could really do with both my kidneys at my age. Problem is both kids have already left home so can't sell them either.

What am I going to do?

Settle on some beer instead!