Mains upgrade

It's axiomatic.

• Dedicated mains spur
• PowerLines
• No power conditioners or filters as such

Adam Zielinski posted:

It'saxiomatic.

• Dedicated mains spur
• PowerLines
• No power conditioners or filters as such

Well I'm a native English speaker but I have to admit to looking in the dictionary for that one, Adam.  Well done !

BTW (by the way), Bana, now I understand what Adam was saying, I have to agree, he's right 

Roger

While It may be axiomatic, it's surprising that mains optimisation is something few people seem to bother about. Those few hundred pounds spent will provide a firm foundation for the system and help to get the best from it, yet you see people spending thousands on kit and just plugging it into the ring main. 

The type of improvement is in the same ilk as that achieved with Fraim and Powellines. I kind of tiding up of the sound. Lighter, cleaner, more tracks and instruments identifiable.  I can do a straight A/B on my dedicated spur versus the ring and the difference is not an illusion. But you'll never know for sure until you have tried it in your situation. I think it unlikely you won't hear some change for the better.

rjstaines posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

It'saxiomatic.

• Dedicated mains spur
• PowerLines
• No power conditioners or filters as such

Well I'm a native English speaker but I have to admit to looking in the dictionary for that one, Adam.  Well done !

BTW (by the way), Bana, now I understand what Adam was saying, I have to agree, he's right 

Roger

Thanks Roger - most of my education was in the UK (economics, maths, statistics, etc) so we used a lot of those fancy words I actually did my A-Levels in Uxbridge, Middx hence my memory of Uxbridge Audio

Adam

Hungryhalibut posted:

While It may be axiomatic, it's surprising that mains optimisation is something few people seem to bother about. Those few hundred pounds spent will provide a firm foundation for the system and help to get the best from it, yet you see people spending thousands on kit and just plugging it into the ring main. 

Agree with HH.

Most of the dealers in Poland are quite good at 'teaching' the users on that. However they tend to forget that NAIMs don't really need fancy power conditioners, filters....

Definitely NOT axiomatic.  It needs supporting evidence.

However look on this forum and you'll find plenty of anecdotal evidence supporting a favourable hypothesis, but no actual proof.  The weight of anecdotal evidence is enough to strongly suggest that the effect is real.

There seems to be no counter evidence for the first two points of Adam's post, however for the third there is definite counter evidence.  Further more, in that case that counter evidence is backed by scientific knowledge.  Where there is more than about 0.1% - 0.2% asymmetry in the mains waveform, a specifically designed 'DC blocking' filter is beneficial as it prevents asymmetric magnetostriction in the transformer core.

Where there is exceptionally severe HF distortion of the mains wave form, then there is also anecdotal evidence that a specifically designed filter is beneficial.

+1 Huge,  you beat me to it w.r.t. point 3.    I fully agree with the DC filter (as you are aware) provided its design is the series capacitor type & the design is not compromised.   In my experience such a filter has a positive effect on SQ.     

Its my belief that other filters (the so called "conditioners") have collected a reputation as detrimental to SQ with the use of X&Y class capacitors connected in shunt across LN&E,  & maybe a lesser extent, the same applies to VDR's,   and all the conditioners I've seen contain common & differential mode chokes & these include the shunt capacitors.   That said,  my experience of these filters is they did not appear to do much either way & I question the value of them.   

In my case removing a 'protection' distribution strip (i.e.. anti surge and RFI filter) actually helped getting rid of  the hum. Speakers are completely quiet in mute and no transformer hum.

As adam says:

Dedicated Spur/radial - unswitched MK doubles.

Powerlines for Naim boxes.

Regards,

Lindsay

Mike-B posted:

+1 Huge,  you beat me to it w.r.t. point 3.    I fully agree with the DC filter (as you are aware) provided its design is the series capacitor type & the design is not compromised.   In my experience such a filter has a positive effect on SQ.     

Its my belief that other filters (the so called "conditioners") have collected a reputation as detrimental to SQ with the use of X&Y class capacitors connected in shunt across LN&E,  & maybe a lesser extent, the same applies to VDR's,   and all the conditioners I've seen contain common & differential mode chokes & these include the shunt capacitors.   That said,  my experience of these filters is they did not appear to do much either way & I question the value of them.   

Mike,

From my experimentation, the problem with mains filters comes when you have both chokes and capacitors, resulting in a tuned circuit that can 'ring' at specific frequencies.  I have a lot of RFI at my location and have found a SQ improvement using a ferrite cored common mode choke and magnetically coupled air-cored differential chokes with no capacitors.  Most people are unlikely to have as much RFI as I seem to have.  I have also tried with and without VDRs, and personally, I haven't been able to hear a difference in SQ.

All these results are anecdotal!

Huge posted: 

.................    a SQ improvement using a ferrite cored common mode choke and magnetically coupled air-cored differential chokes with no capacitors. ...............     I have also tried with and without VDRs, and personally, I haven't been able to hear a difference in SQ.

Huge,  within the anecdotal brackets, I hear ya & don't doubt what you have.    I don't see how C & D mode noise can be removed without the shunt capacitors,  they provide the paths to N&E against the choke impedance.  I would guess the noise is attenuated rather than shunted.   But whatever, if it works who cares.

Re the VDR's,  these are normally spec'd for 275v RMS when used on 240v,  so in theory should not be in play except with momentary spikes & surges.

I'm now officially 'lost in translation' (Mike's vs Huge's exchange)....

Mike,

Exactly on both counts:
Higher source impedance just increases the attenuation of the RFI by the load (rather than attempting to effectively remove it).
And 275V RMS VDRs are >10MΩ @ 350V (they are usually actually >100MΩ @ 350V).

Adam Zielinski posted:

I'm now officially 'lost in translation' (Mike's vs Huge's exchange)....

Sorry Adam, "Nie mówię po Polsku!" (at least that's what google translate says it is)

Huge posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

I'm now officially 'lost in translation' (Mike's vs Huge's exchange)....

Sorry Adam, "Nie mówię po Polsku!" (at least that's what google translate says it is)

Not even a case of Polish or English.

I found the discussion between you and Mike quite technical. Would you mind summarising it for us laymen in a really simple language, so that we can actually benefit from your experience?

Adam

Having a hifi that's run off a conditioner/filter device from domestic outlets and able to turn off and on when wanted with some gain in quality is the reasonable situation we all need.

Burmester has an all in solution for this problem

A power conditioner for a Burmester system to run from.

Perhaps a Naim built conditioner powering next generation gear ?

The Burmester Power Conditioner is actually (at least conceptually) a good idea.  Looks like the rest of the range, has all the power sockets one would ever need. Priced around Naim's XPS (or thereabout).

Adam,

Part of the explanation...

Radio Frequency noise is conducted in two forms

Common mode: where line and neutral carry the same noise signal with respect to earth

Differential mode: where the noise is carried as the difference between the line and neutral

Filtering of RF noise relies on the basis that the frequencies involved are a lot higher than the 50Hz or 60Hz of the mains

Inductors pass low frequency signals more easily than high frequency signals.
(If the current through the inductors tries to change fast, the rapid change causes energy to be stored in a magnetic field and released more slowly.)
Inductors are also known as ‘chokes’.

Capacitors pass high frequency signals more easily than low frequency signals.
(If the voltage changes rapidly the other side of the capacitor tracks that change, but slowly an electric field is built up that stores energy inside the capacitor as the two external sides of the capacitor return to lower energy states.)

The usual approach to filtering involves both inductors and capacitors.  Place the inductors in series with the mains supply to block the high frequency getting through, and place capacitors across the mains so that any remaining HF energy is shorted to earth.

That’s the principle at least.  However, there’s a problem when a spike occurs.  In both inductors and capacitors electrical energy can be stored.  When used together and subject to a pulse (or sharp step) some of the energy gets rapidly passed back and forth between them; this is called ringing.  This is not what you want from a HF filter circuit.

So just using the inductors blocks some of the energy from the RF noise, without the ringing effect.  The reduction of the RF noise isn’t as great as with the circuit using both inductors and capacitors, but it doesn’t have the ringing problem.

.....HUGE

You should be working with/for Naim developing a new RF cancellation distribution power outlet device.

Thank you Huge - I think I understand. My father was a PhD lecturer in robotics and industrial system automation - so at least I understood the words and the theory you'be described.

Axiomatic or anecdotal, there seem to be enough positive views on the forum to give this a go, but I've found it very difficult to find an electrician that will actually do the work in line with the advice/specs that can be found on the forum - and I live near Salisbury!

The electrician who did my spur was highly skeptical and had to take some convincing.  He was a friend of SWMBO of many years standing and I think was trying to save us money and prevent me from making a fool of myself.  I had explained that on occasions when I switched the XPS2 on for the CDS3 it quite often tripped the main fuse or breaker for the circuit.  I played some music that he was familiar with and he was quite appreciative of how good the sound was and could not see why I needed to tinker around with it.  We then set to work and installed the RCD and CU on the tails before the mainboard of the existing CU and used electric cooker cable which was a pig to install but we managed it.  Finally I drove a 3 foot copper rod into the ground outside and had a separate Earth lead to the spur.  We then sat down and listened to a variety of pieces of music, all of Carmina Burana, The Lark Ascending and some Rolling Stones.  Richard turned to me and said he understood why I had been so insistent.  He would never have believed it could possibly make a difference but having heard it with his own ears he knew why it was so important to me.

bana posted:

people do underestimate how important it is to have a good mains signal ( its as important as having your ears waxed ! )

If you lot are going to get all picky and technical about mains supply and use words like 'axiomatic', then I'm going to say something about the statement above. I imagine that the more correct phrase would be  'having your ears syringed' rather than 'waxed'. If one extrapolates the usage of waxed in eg. 'having your legs waxed' and applies it to ears, then I just don't see why removal of the external ear hair (that us older gentlemen may have) via use of a waxed strip is important for subjective audio enjoyment.