Rerouted Ethernet Cable

It is generally accepted that power cables should be kept well clear of the network cables.

Hi Kevin,  re "didn't touch anything else"  (?)  do you mean other cables,  what cable (types),  over what distance.      I ask because I've recently changed ethernet from screened Cat7 to unscreened Cat6 & I'm a bit nervous about this kind of thing.  I've not mixed up too much with other cables (but it happens) & have not installed to my usual (OCD) standards & I intend to go over it again when a new router arrives.     So anything you've done & improved on might be useful. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

It is generally accepted that power cables should be kept well clear of the network cables.

Agreed but ..........building regs recommend 20cm separation in distribution systems (trucking) but permits a section of no separation for the last 15 metres.   So maybe one or two metres ????? maybe ........   Whatever avoid if possible & try to cross at 90 degrees whenever possible.    

Mike-B posted:

Hi Kevin,  re "didn't touch anything else"  (?)  do you mean other cables,  what cable (types),  over what distance.      I ask because I've recently changed ethernet from screened Cat7 to unscreened Cat6 & I'm a bit nervous about this kind of thing.  I've not mixed up too much with other cables (but it happens) & have not installed to my usual (OCD) standards & I intend to go over it again when a new router arrives.     So anything you've done & improved on might be useful. 

First I will say my cables are all a big mess.  I am sure I'm losing a chunk of SQ due this.

My Ethernet cable is Audioquest Cinnamon 3m.  It was just on the floor crossing over various power cables.  I lifted it up and put it on a hook so it is completely suspended and only touches the wall at two points.  It now is at least six inches from any power cord.

This seemingly minor change has made a huge impact.  I think I'll take an afternoon and finally tidy up all my other cables.

A few weeks ago i rearranged my power cables, most of them is now on one of the unused shelfs in one of my racks. This gave a surprising lift in sq.

The next project is to lift my power  distribution  blocks from the floor.

Claus

Kevin, the routing of Ethernet cables with respect to mains cables and via versa so as to avoid electro magnetic coupling is a well defined area and is specified amongst other areas within EN50174-2. I find this interesting as this specification is also referred to by the MoD TEMPEST installation guide to mitigate against reception of unintended radiation from network cables amongst other things.

The actual seperation is dependent on many things such as power carried in mains cable, the number of mains cables, whether the cables are aroured, and the construction of the Ethernet cable type (simply whether shielded or not). In short for most eventualities, the effective minimum distance for loose cables is 50mm for a single phase domestic mains cable, and the distances increase from there for more loose mains cables etc.

Kevin Richardson posted:

My Ethernet cable is Audioquest Cinnamon 3m.  It was just on the floor crossing over various power cables.  I lifted it up and put it on a hook so it is completely suspended and only touches the wall at two points.  It now is at least six inches from any power cord.

Before you start another suspended cable craze Kevin,  its moving the ethernet away from mains power rather than suspending that's caused the change.  Cinnamon is Cat7 & that means it's screened & is more immune to interference than unscreened.    EN50174-2 recommends 20cm separation for unscreened ethernet & power cables,  but with a screened ethernet (Cat6A or Cat7) it's reduced to 5cm.   But also keep in mind EN50174-2 also permits the last 15 metres of an install to not be separated.   

Mike-B posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

My Ethernet cable is Audioquest Cinnamon 3m.  It was just on the floor crossing over various power cables.  I lifted it up and put it on a hook so it is completely suspended and only touches the wall at two points.  It now is at least six inches from any power cord.

Before you start another suspended cable craze Kevin,  its moving the ethernet away from mains power rather than suspending that's caused the change.  Cinnamon is Cat7 & that means it's screened & is more immune to interference than unscreened.    EN50174-2 recommends 20cm separation for unscreened ethernet & power cables,  but with a screened ethernet (Cat6A or Cat7) it's reduced to 5cm.   But also keep in mind EN50174-2 also permits the last 15 metres of an install to not be separated.   

I am sure you are correct.  I only suspended the cable because there is no other way to separate it from the power cables.  I only mentioned the suspension for completeness.

Anyhoo....  The system sounds much better now.

Does keeping Ethernet cable away from mains cables also include keeping Ethernet away from NacA5 to improve sound?

I doubt it as speaker cables carry very little energy & I suspect the EMI levels will be close to zero & the ethernet twisted pair configuration is very effective at rejecting common mode EMI.  

Phew! Thanks

been there done that.

sometime ago i got intgo this malarkey of 'dressing up' ethernet cables and ended up in a right mess. but thats because at some point, while messing about, i lost the excellent sound quality that i was used to -- there is a very long (and probably very boring) thread elsewhere about this. and then i think i panicked. i think superstition set in as i began to hear diffrerences from very unlikely changes, for example, moving the router about, power cycling network components, etc etc...

i am sure you guys are much cleverer than i am and will conduct any such experiements in a structured manner so that you can correctly attribute changes. one thing i learnt from all this is how, in my system, the more expensive internet cables didnt really bring anything to the party. so now, i am back to cheapo cheapo CAT 6 ones from Maplin. I would have liked to get to the bottom of screened vs unscreened -- but i ran out of time and also got tired of all the changing around. at least i have managed to deploy the AQ Cinnammon between switch and UnitiServe -- so this rather expensive wire is not sitting around anymore.

I havent completely gone back to my original setup -- one corner of our conservatory looks very undomestic now (well, i guess 3 fraim racks dont exactly look that domestic -- but hey!). i have been meaning to bring it all back to sanity -- but the system sounds good now and i would rather spend time listening to music than messing about. Ethernet cables now run in parallel with 2 radial mains cables (seperation 12cm). probably a bad idea (or not) but i am not going to worry or do anything about it.

so i am in fact rather disappointed not to be able to contribute anything concrete to this thread -- but there are some very knowledgeable people contributing expert advice here already -- i will follow it all with some tame interest from a distance but i will not pollute/ruin it with my own somewhat random experiences...

Good luck guys and have fun...!

enjoy

ken

Does it make any difference in what order the cables are connected to the Ethernet switch?

In a word - NO.  

However the only words I've ever found on this are on the Lejonklou forum - they say it does matter & list the best port combo's for a Netgear 8 port  -  & also please note all switches apart from Netgear are unworthy.   One thing that you might notice quite quickly is all the posts are totally subjective opinions from one or two contributors & also (unlike this forum & the fishy plaice)  no one actually challenges anything.    

Mike-B posted:

I doubt it as speaker cables carry very little energy & I suspect the EMI levels will be close to zero & the ethernet twisted pair configuration is very effective at rejecting common mode EMI.  

Mike i I don't think you mean common mode.. a balanced or twisted cable won't reject common mode as the energy is the same (and not opposites) in the balanced or twisted lead. 

A method to attenuate common mode would be to pass both balanced or twisted pair  leads together through an inductor. 

I did mean common mode Simon,  noise is introduced into twisted pairs equally,  so its common mode -  isn't it ??  The point I was making however is that the twisted pair rejects (cancels out) EMI

Yes - but is therefore not rejected.... as with common mode the noise is at equal value across both wires. Differential noise is rejected across the two conductors as both conductors carry equal and opposite voltages.. so balanced and twisted pair leads are highly effective at rejecting differential noise both egressing and ingressing.

I need to think about this ...........  its my understanding that common mode noise exists equally on both pair lines & both carry the same noise voltage.    This has equal potentials with respect to signal ground & the difference is thus cancelling out the noise.

But enough,  we are highjacking the thread

Mike-B posted:

I need to think about this ...........  its my understanding that common mode noise travels along both pair lines & both carry the same noise voltage.    

 

correct - same voltage, same polarity, no cancellation as it superimposed on the +ve and -ve voltages of the balanced or twisted pair... so say we have across a twisted pair with respect ground

+5Volts

-5Volts

  -----  with a differential of +10Volts and a magnitude  of 0Volts to ground.

Lets say a common mode voltage of +1Volt is superimposed on the twisted pair so the voltages look like with respect to ground

+6Volts

-4Volts

----- the differential is still +10Volts and so there has been total differential mode rejection, but a magnitude of 1 volt with respect to ground has appeared as common mode across both conductors...

Have a glass of wine or three - and I am sure it will snap into sense 

PS i am trying to get a copy EN50174-2:2008 - the spec was completely overhauled and the 15/35metre confession has been superseded....

OK cheers,  I have a few 2007 Pinotage remaining that were collected in person from my favourite vineyard.  

Re EN50174-2:2008,  good luck getting that,  I've been reading what is available & found a paper that says its removing the 15/35 confusion,  but can't find any detail other than more confusion.  

By definition, Ethernet data is an error corrected therefore errorless stream. You can do whatever you want with your Ethernet cable, lift it above ground, suspended in mid air and using a Vodka for that matter, but the differences in SQ some people claim they hear between this and a cheap €2 cable tangled around all the power lines in your house are a result of other factors. Same goes for toslinks or any other digital transmission cables where checksums are applied to all packets.

Of course a €500 2m Ethernet cable must trigger some sound improvements, who would be crazy enough to spend that amount of money for a nice colored cable that does the same thing as a €2 cable.

Dan.S posted:

By definition, Ethernet data is an error corrected therefore errorless stream. You can do whatever you want with your Ethernet cable,

This statement is simply not true.... Ethernet is a framing protocol. There is no error correction... there is however basic error detection. Any error correction is dependent on the layers above the frame level such as the transport layer such as TCP. TCP will request any lost or corrupted data is resent. TCP can sit on top of different types of framing protocol of which Ethernet is just one. Other transport mechanisms such as UDP can sit on Ethernet and there is no error correction at all, it's fire and forget. Multicast discovery uses UDP for example.

Simon

The common mode rejection of a balanced system (such as Ethernet) isn't in the cables, it's in the CMRR of the receiver.  The receiver is designed to detect (or amplify) differential signals only.  The CMRR is a measure of how selective the differential amplification is.

Dan.S posted:

By definition, Ethernet data is an error corrected therefore errorless stream. You can do whatever you want with your Ethernet cable, lift it above ground, suspended in mid air and using a Vodka for that matter, but the differences in SQ some people claim they hear between this and a cheap €2 cable tangled around all the power lines in your house are a result of other factors. Same goes for toslinks or any other digital transmission cables where checksums are applied to all packets.

Of course a €500 2m Ethernet cable must trigger some sound improvements, who would be crazy enough to spend that amount of money for a nice colored cable that does the same thing as a €2 cable.

I'm sure you believe what you say but I have first hand experience that contradicts your position.  

Kevin Richardson posted:

Dan.S posted:

By definition, Ethernet data is an error corrected therefore errorless stream. You can do whatever you want with your Ethernet cable, lift it above ground, suspended in mid air and using a Vodka for that matter, but the differences in SQ some people claim they hear between this and a cheap €2 cable tangled around all the power lines in your house are a result of other factors. Same goes for toslinks or any other digital transmission cables where checksums are applied to all packets.

Of course a €500 2m Ethernet cable must trigger some sound improvements, who would be crazy enough to spend that amount of money for a nice colored cable that does the same thing as a €2 cable.

I'm sure you believe what you say but I have first hand experience that contradicts your position.  

The really funny thing is I also have first hand experience that contradicts me, that's why I've stated these differences are a result of other factors.