Rerouted Ethernet Cable

nigelb posted:

GraemeH posted:

nigelb posted:

GraemeH posted:

nigelb posted:

When I saw reference to lubrication I though I had come on to the wrong forum!

Oooh......errr......missus!

No pun intended...!

G

And I thought I was lowering the tone! 

I blame Humphrey Lyttelton myself.

G

It was Humph on Radio 4 who once mentioned that (the fictitious) Samantha, who operated the Lazer display board, had gone on a Pie tasting evening. Humph reported that Samantha quite liked the beef and ale pie but much preferred the Tongue in Cider. Priceless. I loved that programme with Barry Cryer in memory serves.

Sorry for the diversion.

I was showing a colleague the one with Samantha in the dusty record archive today...If you google 'Humphrey Lyttelton Samantha' some wag has thoughtfully transcribed them all for the internet.

G

Kevin Richardson posted:       But..... How can I be sure it is not causing a problem?

 

You can't tell (without a lot of test gear) & it probably isn't anyway,  plus it probably won't do anything "bad".  But using screened ethernet can bring some misapplication possibilities that seem to have been overlooked by the people who make them.   Cat7 & 600MHz is all well & good, but 600MHz is not needed & a misapplied screen intended to prevent noise,  might actually be adding to it.

Just read the quotes of Humph talking about Samantha. I had tears rolling down my eyes. I just remember his complete deadpan delivery which made him all the funnier. RIP Humph.

Again sorry for the diversion.

nigelb posted:

No, I don't have a NAS. I know, I know, I need a back up to the US and it is next on my list. When I do get my NAS, it will either be a QNAP or Synology. Will either of these be an additional grounding point that needs to be removed with the adapter?

Once I'd done a large initial US backup over wired Ethernet, I moved my Synology NAS further away, and do the regular automatic backups over WiFi. This was partly because it is too noisy to have in the listening room, but also eliminates the possibility of grounding issues etc. via the Ethernet cable.

ChrisSU posted:

nigelb posted:

No, I don't have a NAS. I know, I know, I need a back up to the US and it is next on my list. When I do get my NAS, it will either be a QNAP or Synology. Will either of these be an additional grounding point that needs to be removed with the adapter?

Once I'd done a large initial US backup over wired Ethernet, I moved my Synology NAS further away, and do the regular automatic backups over WiFi. This was partly because it is too noisy to have in the listening room, but also eliminates the possibility of grounding issues etc. via the Ethernet cable.

Thanks for the tip Chris.

I must admit, I am not looking forward to the initial back-up of the US on to a NAS having read the issues others have had on here trying to perform this task. My understanding is that it is best to covert all the WAV files to flac on the US first and than back up as flac files. Is there also a problem backing up the downloaded music files? I probably need to do a search on here or start another thread about the best way to back up a US. Others have simply referred to Steve Hopkins for help - think that will be my approach!

nigelb posted:

ChrisSU posted:

nigelb posted:

No, I don't have a NAS. I know, I know, I need a back up to the US and it is next on my list. When I do get my NAS, it will either be a QNAP or Synology. Will either of these be an additional grounding point that needs to be removed with the adapter?

Once I'd done a large initial US backup over wired Ethernet, I moved my Synology NAS further away, and do the regular automatic backups over WiFi. This was partly because it is too noisy to have in the listening room, but also eliminates the possibility of grounding issues etc. via the Ethernet cable.

Thanks for the tip Chris.

I must admit, I am not looking forward to the initial back-up of the US on to a NAS having read the issues others have had on here trying to perform this task. My understanding is that it is best to covert all the WAV files to flac on the US first and than back up as flac files. Is there also a problem backing up the downloaded music files? I probably need to do a search on here or start another thread about the best way to back up a US. Others have simply referred to Steve Hopkins for help - think that will be my approach!

It's Phil Harris you'll need to talk to. Don't worry, he'll be able to help, or even do a remote log in and do it for you if you get stuck. You can't use the US auto backup for downloads, only CD rips, so it's best to back these up separately when you download them. 

The advantage of converting to FLAC is (a) smaller files, which speeds up the large initial backup, and (b) if you ever use the NAS to replace the US as a server, the metadata will still be readable. Anyway, totally off-topic now, so I'd better shut up!

Mike-B posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:       But..... How can I be sure it is not causing a problem?

 

.......,  plus it probably won't do anything "bad".  But using screened ethernet can bring some misapplication possibilities that seem to have been overlooked by the people who make them.   Cat7 & 600MHz is all well & good, but 600MHz is not needed & a misapplied screen intended to prevent noise,  might actually be adding to it.

Indeed, compliant Ethernet ports have to be galvanically isolated. If there is an earth loop in the shield, the induced mains voltage (in the home environment) will be coupling or modulate the ground. This almost certainly is not going to affect network operation because of the galvanic isolation and nature of the balanced conductors, but at worse I would expect an audible and perhaps only faintly audible mains hum appearing in connected audio equipment, that stops when the Ethernet lead is disconnected... If this occurs sniff out the earth loop. The only test equipment you should need is a basic multimeter and your ears.

Also, although I use one or two joiners.. Passive joiners and adapters are not officially recognised for network/Ethernet operation... as they almost certainly push the cable(s) out of spec. When ever I use always check for increased frame corruption.. and I think this is beyond most on the forum...

Simon

My system has suddenly snapped into shape. That is the only way to describe it. Increased clarity, precision, timing and fine detail with great balance.

I am trying to explain how this has happened. The only thing I did immediately prior to the 'snapping into shape' was to insert the Lindy adapter into the Unitiserve to remove the one too many grounding points as I use screened ethernet cables. Could this very simple mod really produce such a profound improvement or is it just coincidence.

I have noticed variations in SQ before and have found listening certain times of the day/week can make a difference to SQ. Sunday afternoon/evenings are usually good but this could be that I am off work then and relaxed listening to music and it could be a mood thing rather than a mains quality thing.

But again I ask can the little Lindy adapter make such a difference? I'm fairly sure that Mike will tell me it is all in my mind, placebo and all that.

Actually I don't really care if I am being delusional, really enjoying the supposed increase in SQ. As they say ignorance is bliss!

Nigel - whatever works! As long as it works! Happy to hear your system sounds wonderful now. 

Enjoy the music!

Adam

nigelb posted:

My system has suddenly snapped into shape. That is the only way to describe it. Increased clarity, precision, timing and fine detail with great balance  ................  The only thing I did immediately prior to the 'snapping into shape' was to insert the Lindy adapter into the Unitiserve to remove the one too many grounding points as I use screened ethernet cables.

Nigel,  its hard to say positively one way or another,  but based on your UTP adaptor change & the immediate effect,  it's seems probable.   You don't need more than one ethernet ground & you positively do not want a 2nd ground from a different power circuit.   

Another indicator that screened ethernet is not quite as beneficial or as simple as the vendors would have us believe.  

Mike, it is a shame I didn't listen both before and after the adapter went in and I would have more of an idea of the impact the removal of the 2nd grounding point has on SQ (if any of course). I am loathed to back track to try and prove this as I hate the thought of possibly undoing what has been achieved.

If it was the insertion of the UTP adapter responsible for the uplift in SQ, then it is one of those fundamental rules of setting up a home audio LAN (when using screened ethernet cables). Again, if the adapter did make such a difference, then it was mostly by luck that I stumbled across it when you alluded to it earlier in this thread and I asked you for help in relation to my system (as I did not have the understanding about grounding using screened ethernet cables - as many of us do not).

So if anyone is reading this using a streaming system and a LAN with screened ethernet cables, get your grounding sorted and be on the safe side!

Again this tells me (if the adapter is responsible) that many (most?) of us need help and advice when putting together a streaming system, particularly when using a LAN if we are to get the best out of our rather expensive streaming systems. Ho...hum.

Many thanks again Mike for your help and advice.

nigelb posted:

My system has suddenly snapped into shape. That is the only way to describe it. Increased clarity, precision, timing and fine detail with great balance.

I am trying to explain how this has happened. The only thing I did immediately prior to the 'snapping into shape' was to insert the Lindy adapter into the Unitiserve to remove the one too many grounding points as I use screened ethernet cables. Could this very simple mod really produce such a profound improvement or is it just coincidence.

I have noticed variations in SQ before and have found listening certain times of the day/week can make a difference to SQ. Sunday afternoon/evenings are usually good but this could be that I am off work then and relaxed listening to music and it could be a mood thing rather than a mains quality thing.

But again I ask can the little Lindy adapter make such a difference? I'm fairly sure that Mike will tell me it is all in my mind, placebo and all that.

Actually I don't really care if I am being delusional, really enjoying the supposed increase in SQ. As they say ignorance is bliss!

Wow! Nigel, i actually thought that your system had stabilised since your 'fiddling' (ooops sorry, fettling) -- but it looks like you had more performance waiting to be unleashed!!! as i recall, you have the 'full works' as far as dedicated mains to your LAN setup -- seperate radial, shillded cables and all. please remind me again, what ethernet wires are you using -- AQ?

i am not really sure i understand this shealded vs unshielded business, but seems there are significant implications one way or the other (i.e. shielded vs unshiedled). i guess it also depends whether the shielding is connected to ground at the naim component end as well -- but i am out of depth trying to make sense of these issues. it would be nice to be able to anticipate these effects so that this is not a guessing game -- but i guess thats a wish too far in this area.

Good to know SQ is moving in the positive direction anyhow.

enjoy

ken

another point -- some of these more expensive cable claim yo have a superior RJ45 connection construction. depending on what LAN wire you are using, i just wondered whether the Lindy adapter might then compromise this specifical RJ45 interface -- but of course this depends on your LAN cable, etc etc...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

another point -- some of these more expensive cable claim yo have a superior RJ45 connection construction. depending on what LAN wire you are using, i just wondered whether the Lindy adapter might then compromise this specifical RJ45 interface -- but of course this depends on your LAN cable, etc etc...

The adaptor is claimed to be 10/100/1000 Base-T - Cat5e & Cat6 compatible -  (Cat6 is 250MHz)

Its most likely Cat7 (600MHz) is at its limit & is compromised by its own RJ45's,  & considering those straight parallel PCB tracks in the very expensive AQ cables, I believe testing has proven they downgrade it to 500MHz at best.        That all said Naim streamers work at 31MHz (100mb/s)

Ken, I am using a mixture of AQ ethernet cables. Cinnamon from router to switch and both Vodka from switch to Unitiserve and from switch to NDS (I also use Cinnamon from iMac to router). All the AQ cables are screened so you have to be careful to only have ONE grounding point in the LAN when using screened cables. There are no such issues when using unscreened ethernet cables as they have no screen to ground. This is complicated by the fact that some devices do not have a ground (e.g. my BT HH5 router) while others do have a ground (e.g. the Netgear switch, Unitiserve and NDS). So if you connect a screened ethernet cable to a device with a ground then you have one grounding point. With an audio LAN you only want one grounding point (if my understanding is correct) and if you have more than one, a grounding point can be removed (isolated) by using the Lindy UTP adapter referred to earlier (or a short length of unshielded ethernet cable inserted between screened ethernet cable and grounded device).

Mike, I would ask you here to check my explanation and correct it if necessary. If the above is correct Mike then I still have two grounded devices in my LAN with screened cables connected to them, the switch and the NDS. Do I need another Lindy adapter or have I misunderstood?

Ken, I guess I am compromising the quality of one of my AQ RJ45 connectors (on on the Vodka actually) by inserting the plastic Lindy adapter. But the evidence is that the benefits of sorting the grounding out far outweigh the (arguable) benefits of a posh RJ45 connector. You are also right in assuming I believed everything in my system was moving in the right direction as I detected SQ enhancements with each effort to remove noise (separating LAN and Hifi physically and electrically, different ring mains used for LAN and Hifi, the low noise iFi iPower SMPS on the Netgear switch, the TP linear power supply on the US, the LoRad mains cables, physically separating AC/DC/ethernet cables, etc). Indeed I was surprised by the further enhancement in SQ today from (possibly/probably?) the introduction of the Lindy adapter and the removal of the unwanted grounding point on the US.

I still maintain noise removal is Black Art and it is impossible to quantify how much improvement each change makes. I believe there is a cumulative effect from all these efforts, but again how they combine to produce improved SQ is anyone's guess. Black Art indeed.

Thanks Nigel. there are still question marks in my slow mind. So, if i used unscreened cables throughout, then this is a guarantee that no LAN components earth is connected to any other? and that the only common earth is the mains earth (i assume since the LAN components connect to mains via 3 pin plus, then the chassis is indeed connected to earth? is this a good thing?

but of course, one may need to use screened cables for other reasons -- to cut out interference (i assume both into and out ofLAN cable?) -- but i guess we are saying one must be careful o ensure that the screen doesnt create additional earth points? 

as i understand from one of Mikes point - whether a shielded LAN cable connects to component chassis depends on the design of the component? i then wonder why, given all these potential problems, why LAN connection at a component would ever be earther at all as a shielded cable would/may connect to this earth?

Oh dear... i just heate the implied 'trial and error' approach here... but of course this is likely because of my limited understanding.

enjoy...

ken

Nigel & Ken,   to keep it simple: if you insist on using a screened ethernet network (STP - Cat6A & Cat7) then you need to understand its a better to have just one ground.   To avoid to need to know exactly or test each component its a good idea to assume that if they have metal shrouded ports, then they are grounded (earthed).  Most all routers have non-shrouded ports so are UTP & not grounded.     All Naim units have shrouded ports & are grounded, so best use the Naim as the "one" ground.    A switch may be UTP or STP,  however switches with shrouded ports are not normally grounded as such, they connect the screen circuit through the switch to the other ethernet screen branches.   The NAS & US ports (if shrouded) are more than likely grounded,  therefore either use a UTP coupler with a section of UTP  (Cat5e or Cat6)  or a whole UTP from the switch or the Lindy or another UTP adapter/coupler to have that ethernet screen branch isolated at that end.    

Thats the simple stuff,  now from my perspective, my latest "position"  ....... I used to have an all STP Cat7 screened LAN, I know the importance of & made sure the screen ground was correct.  But since I've moved to all UTP Cat6 I have been more than pleased with the improved SQ.    I understand why people are attracted to high MHz Cat7,  but I now know a well made, quality, verified performing Cat6 does it as well, if not better,  for sure without the ground complications.   And no Ken, this is not trail & error.  

Mike-B posted:

.... I used to have an all STP Cat7 screened LAN, I know the importance of & made sure the screen ground was correct.  But since I've moved to all UTP Cat6 I have been more than pleased with the improved SQ.    I understand why people are attracted to high MHz Cat7,  but I now know a well made, quality, verified performing Cat6 does it as well, if not better,  for sure without the ground complications.   And no Ken, this is not trail & error.  

when using all UTP, then i take it the grounding issue becomes irrelevant because then there is no possibility to connect one ground to another. i take it then that using the Lindy UTP adapter on all connections to Naim units would then be more or less equivalent to using UTP cables?

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:  

when using all UTP, then i take it the grounding issue becomes irrelevant because then there is no possibility to connect one ground to another. i

Correct, Ethernet twisted pair connections by specification use galvanic isolation and balanced conductors so as to avoid ground loops when used as UTP.

S

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ken c posted:  

when using all UTP, then i take it the grounding issue becomes irrelevant because then there is no possibility to connect one ground to another. i

Correct, Ethernet twisted pair connections by specification use galvanic isolation and balanced conductors so as to avoid ground loops when used as UTP.

S

Simon, many thanks. my 2nd sentence wasnt clear -- i forgot to add 'when using shielded cables'

enjoy

ken

Thanks Mike. So the Netgear switch, although having metal shrouded sockets does not act as a grounding point (simply connecting the STP ethernet screens on cables connected to the switch) and hence does not need to be isolated with say a UTP Lindy adapter?

When I acquired the AQ ethernet cables I was unaware of the 'one ground' requirement and did not anticipate such issues. Knowing what I know now (together with your findings of the capability of unscreened Cat6 cables) I would have probably chosen to go the Cat6 route and avoid the potential multi-grounding issues. But I am where I am and now have my system performing very well so I will stick with what I have and be sure of my understanding of screened LAN grounding requirements.

Ken,

Mike has given you far better answers to your last queries than I can. If you have a US, NAS and NDS, and are using screened ethernet cables throughout, make sure you isolate both the US and NAS with say a Lindy adapter, leaving the NDS as the one and only grounding point.

Night, night.

nigelb posted:

Thanks Mike. So the Netgear switch, although having metal shrouded sockets does not act as a grounding point (simply connecting the STP ethernet screens on cables connected to the switch) and hence does not need to be isolated with say a UTP Lindy adapter?

Morning morning Nigel          The Netgear SMPS & the iFi iPower do not have an earth connection,  the E pin is plastic.    The Netgear case is capacitively coupled to the internal PCB, I'm not aware of the C value but it will do things in the higher frequencies to suppress RF noise.    

just to summarize my (mis)understanding then:

if you are using shielded ethernet cables, then you have to make sure that (a) the shielding is connected to earth somewhere and (b) that there is one and only one such connection. how you know which component to earth on is not obvious -- you can get some advice here from kind folks like Mike who just happen to know these things. i have looked at the LAN gear docs didnt see specfic info on this, but of course may have just missed it. If you get this wrong, you risk having more than 1 earth point or NO earth point at all -- bth of which are bad if you are using shielded cables.

if you are using unshielded cables (UTP) then you dont have to worry about any earthing issues.

Wow!

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

just to summarize my (mis)understanding then:

if you are using shielded ethernet cables, then you have to make sure that (a) the shielding is connected to earth somewhere and (b) that there is one and only one such connection. how you know which component to earth on is not obvious -- you can get some advice here from kind folks like Mike who just happen to know these things. i have looked at the LAN gear docs didnt see specfic info on this, but of course may have just missed it. If you get this wrong, you risk having more than 1 earth point or NO earth point at all -- bth of which are bad if you are using shielded cables.

if you are using unshielded cables (UTP) then you dont have to worry about any earthing issues.

Wow!

enjoy...

ken

 

Indeed Ken, that is my understanding too. As a guide to which devices to ground to when exclusively using shielded ethernet cables, only devices with metal shrouded sockets AND are also earthed can be grounded to. This excludes the likes of the Netgear switch which, although has metal shrouded sockets, is not earthed so cannot be a grounding point. Most hubs and routers have plastic shrouded sockets so also cannot be grounding points. And finally as you point out, only ground to one point only in the LAN when exclusively using shielded ethernet cabling. If you have more that one grounding point in the LAN, then you can eliminate it by using either a section of unshielded ethernet cable to connect to that point or use the little Lindy UTP adapter and plug it into the grounding point (device) you want to isolate like I did on my Unitiserve.

Sorry if that sounds like a Mickey Mouse, repetitive explanation to those in the know, but I have put in terms that I (and hopefully other novices in this area) might understand.

Phew, I hope that is right!