Naim Dac V1 + Nap 200 Muddy sound

Is the grounding switch on chassis ?

Hi Analog,

Yes it is, double checked.

Cheers

Not how recall a V1 and 200 sounding at all.

Did you demo the 200 before you bought?

How are you connecting the V1 with the 200?

If all this checks out, it may be that the speakers are showing their limitations.  Try repositioning.

HTH

Jude

Check phase

I can't stress enough how much difference speaker positioning can make to this type of problem.  However wonderful they may have sounded in their current position, a change of electronics can require a re-think.  If you're getting boom, then a cancelling effect that diminishes the mid-range performance is also probable.  If you can, experiment with moving the speakers further from the rear wall, try less toe-in blah etc.  In the end, it's all about moving air, no matter how great the electronics.

Try firing the speakers straight forward, and then toeing in just enough for a stable central image with vocals. You should find that the sound opens up. 

Jude2012 posted:

Not how recall a V1 and 200 sounding at all.

Did you demo the 200 before you bought?

How are you connecting the V1 with the 200?

If all this checks out, it may be that the speakers are showing their limitations.  Try repositioning.

HTH

Jude

 

Hi Jude,

I did not demo the Nap 200 but about a year ago I demoed and purchased a Rega Elicit-R. This was demoed against a Naim XS2 with the Dac V1 driving it (and same speakers as I have at home). At the time of the demo, both systems sounded similar and I went for the Elicit simply because of more power and because I was a bit afraid of the Naim quirks (Mains hum, cables etc.). 

Fast forward to today, I took a risk (and will of course deal with the consequences) and purchased a used Nap 200 without further demo. My hypothesis was that if I liked the Dac V1 + Naim XS2 then the sound is not going to be hugely different with the Nap 200 in place. What surprises me most is that I am getting recessed treble and vocals with the Nap 200... a very big difference to what I experienced when I demoed with the XS2. 

I am using the standard Naim snail cable (supplied with the Nap200) to connect the V1 to the Nap 200. I have a sonos connect feeding the V1 using a chord prodac (rca to bnc).

I totally agree that the speakers are a big limitation but if anything I was expecting them to be shouty, forward and very fatiguing in the highs (The usual complaint about MA speakers). In my case the sound is muddy and recessed. I guess I need to check if something else is 'broken' or wrong before I spend to upgrade speakers. I will certainly try to reposition speakers to see what that does.

Many thanks for the great advice.

Many thanks for all the great feedback. The consensus appears to be that i) my system should sound different and ii) the speakers' position might be causing the issue. I will try to reposition speakers so they are not toed it and see what that does.

Having said that, I always thought that toeing in tends to increase treble and vocals. Am I not going to make things worse by having the speakers firing straight ahead?

I am on a business trip so I will have to wait till I get back before I try....

can you get a 4 mtr pair of Naca5 speaker cables on a loaner from your dealer ?

The Naca5 is an option to try but in all honesty I have no way to hide it and I would really really like to avoid it if I can. The Chord Odyssey II is supposed to be quite ok (Dealer confirmed) for the Naim and I have the minimum 3.5 m length as well. I will of course try that variable as well but ... I would love to leave it as a last resort

Cheers

The other point worth considering is that Naim gear can take a while to warm up and sound its best. To me this is counted in weeks rather than days. Years ago I had a Supernait that sounded very bloated and thick until it had some time under its belt.  Depends how long you've been running your kit to arrive at this conclusion...

whsturm posted:

The other point worth considering is that Naim gear can take a while to warm up and sound its best. To me this is counted in weeks rather than days. Years ago I had a Supernait that sounded very bloated and thick until it had some time under its belt.  Depends how long you've been running your kit to arrive at this conclusion...

Great point indeed. I left the Naim units on for about 40 hours before testing. This may be ok I guess...

A couple of days is not enough in my experience. The first days can seem to swing between bloated and screechy as the kit settles down. It will probably sound a lot better when you get home, if you've left it on whilst you are away. Worth searching these forums for 'warm up' times for kit which gives some interesting debate!

Get your 200 checked.

Please confirm that both speakers are in phase, as suggested by Yeti42 above.  What you describe is what happens when one speaker is out of phase with the other, and also the sound tends to come from "around or behind" instead of a central image.

'Out of phase' results when speakers are not connected correctly? It is a great tip and I will double check the connections as soon as i am back from my trip.

Many thanks!

isK posted:

'Out of phase' results when speakers are not connected correctly? It is a great tip and I will double check the connections as soon as i am back from my trip.

Many thanks!

Picking up on Yeti42 and CharlieP's point ....

a) If you are viewing the 200 from the front, the left speaker connection (labelled 'ch1 'left') is towards the right hand side of the 200 on its rear.  This seemed counter intuitive to me when I first got my 200. If you haven't seen it already, page E39 of the reference manual has a good diagram of the rear of the 200.  It can be downloaded here - https://www.naimaudio.com/product/nap-200

b) Much more intuitive and less likely to be the issue as you were using the speakers before, but worth also checking whether the red termination of the Odyssey cable is connected to red / '+' speaker input socket of the 200 (and at the speaker end as well ) of each speaker.

HTH

J

Jude2012 posted:

isK posted:

'Out of phase' results when speakers are not connected correctly? It is a great tip and I will double check the connections as soon as i am back from my trip.

Many thanks!

Picking up on Yeti42 and CharlieP's point ....

a) If you are viewing the 200 from the front, the left speaker connection (labelled 'ch1 'left') is towards the right hand side of the 200 on its rear.  This seemed counter intuitive to me when I first got my 200. If you haven't seen it already, page E39 of the reference manual has a good diagram of the rear of the 200.  It can be downloaded here - https://www.naimaudio.com/product/nap-200

b) Much more intuitive and less likely to be the issue as you were using the speakers before, but worth also checking whether the red termination of the Odyssey cable is connected to red / '+' speaker input socket of the 200 (and at the speaker end as well ) of each speaker.

HTH

J

Thanks for that Jude :-). One can never be too sure so I will check and double check when I am back. I am pretty sure I got it right but you never know :-o

Hi. I think it's a not-so-good partnering - the Nap200 + MA RX1. MA's silver range is different from their bronze range. They're smooth and slightly restrained speakers. The Nap200 also has a full bodied and warmish sound, and needs more transparent speakers. I would look at Focal Aria 906 if you don't wanna spend a lot, or ATC SCM11, PMC Twenty 22 or B&W CM5/CM6 s2 to replace them. 

rainsoothe posted:

Hi. I think it's a not-so-good partnering - the Nap200 + MA RX1. MA's silver range is different from their bronze range. They're smooth and slightly restrained speakers. The Nap200 also has a full bodied and warmish sound, and needs more transparent speakers. I would look at Focal Aria 906 if you don't wanna spend a lot, or ATC SCM11, PMC Twenty 22 or B&W CM5/CM6 s2 to replace them. 

Aha! :-) that is really interesting and gives me hope. So while most MA speakers are reported to be forward and 'shouty' when partnered with Naim, the RX1s may be the opposite? If that is the case then it would be a kind of a relief as I would hate to think the Naim setup is the problem. I just hope to make sure there is nothing wrong with the Nap200 (or the V1) before I go ahead and upgrade. 

Funny thing is that the MA RX1s sounded open and detailed with the Dac V1 + Elicit-R power stage. Vocal clarity was amazing and no fatigue at all with the highs. The problem with that setup was a lack of bass punch and rhythm. 

Hmmm... I may have to head to my dealer for a Focal Aria demo when I get back.

By all means, you should check that the Nap200 is ok before anything else. But not all Naim stuff sounds the same, people saying that stuff have preconceptions about Naim products, and they only apply to certain extent. For instance, the first gen Nait XS or Nap200 nonDR sound pretty smooth, even if they have the Naim rhythmic drive. The first gen Supernait and the Superuiniti also have a warm-ish character. By contrast, Nait 5i (italic) or Uniti2 for instance, can be bright when partnered wrong. I'm guessing those might work well with your MA's. 

Also, make sure your Dac V1's firmware is up to date.

What is the source? In my case sound got "muddled" after a couple of days from my audio-pc to Dac V1. 

A simple usb 5v-line isolator took care of the problem completely. Now running couple of months without ever getting muddled sound again. It's a ground loop issue I think.

Dac V1 is a fantastic part of the source and highly customizable. Will sound it's best after lots and lots of tweaks to whatever it's connected to, and how.

Henkerino posted:

What is the source? In my case sound got "muddled" after a couple of days from my audio-pc to Dac V1. 

A simple usb 5v-line isolator took care of the problem completely. Now running couple of months without ever getting muddled sound again. It's a ground loop issue I think.

Dac V1 is a fantastic part of the source and highly customizable. Will sound it's best after lots and lots of tweaks to whatever it's connected to, and how.

Many thanks for the tip, I am actually using a Sonos connect coaxial out to BNC (Chord Prodac) so I guess the ground loop issue might not apply in this case. 

So far and based on the great advice it looks like it might be an issue with phase (speaker connections), speaker positioning and / or bad speaker match with the Nap 200. I will start with a thorough check of all connections, followed by some speaker repositioning experiments... if all fails I will have to think about different speakers.

Cheers

I would try a different source. That device has a built in switching psu and noise can cause the issues you experience. You could also try toslink connection from the Sonos to eliminate electrical connection to the Dac V1

Until recently I used DAC-V1 into NAP 200, driving Harbeth Compact 7 ES3 speakers -- a superb combination, not even remotely what I would call "muddy." Quite the opposite -- clear, detailed, dynamic, musical, non-fatiguing. Also tried a pair of Spendor speakers and the DAC-amp combo retained its virtues. Sources into the DAC-V1 included a Naim ND5 XS and a Sonos Connect. The ND5 XS bettered the Sonos Connect, of course, but the Sonos still sounded fine through the DAC-V1, not "muddy." I'm sorry to say that I don't have any suggestions beyond those already posted. I just wanted to note that my experience with the DAC-V1/NAP 200 combination was very positive, with many hours of musical enjoyment. (I'd still be enjoying them were it not for downsizing the entire system.)