Supernait 2 and Audio Physic

Hi Bart,

I've lived with the Sitara and the Tempo 25, and heard the Virgos many times, but not the Avantera. 

Initially impressive speakers with wonderfully precise imaging, but sooner or later the small midrange driver makes its presence known. Bass can sometimes appear a bit disconnected from the rest of the music.

But as always, the match with your room and your ears could yield completely different results.

Jan

Thanks Jan!  Right now my bass is very disconnected as I'm using a subwoofer.  I'm hoping to remedy that with speakers somewhat "more" than what I have now.

How large is your room ? What are the Devore's not providing ?

Bart how big is your room? Which woofer are you using and how you connect them? I have experience on woofers just recently and connecting through high level connection really solved the timing problem.

Hi Bart,

I had the original Virgo for several years and it is still making fine sounds at a friends place. The speaker was designed by Joachim Gerhard. one of the companys founders. The current lineup strikes me as a little bland compared to the original designs. Allan Perkins from Immedia builds several speakers based on Joachims ideas. While I have no idea about their pricing, take a look at the Canalis Allegra v2. I heard the Sonics Allegra (v1) a while ago and it had a lot of the original Virgo in it.

Thanks all.  Jan, Nic, my room is rather small. It is rectangular, approx 12 feet x 20 feet, and we sit the "short way".  The couch can easily be centered between the speakers, and the Naim Fraim is off to a side, not between the speakers.  The subwoofer is between the Fraim and one of the speakers.

I just want a bit more of the lowest octave.  The sub certainly provides this.  It's not perfect, but it holds together pretty well; the bass is not very disconnected by any means, but part of me thinks that thinks could always be better without a sub.  The sub is connected to RCA outputs of the SN2.

The Devore Nines are still lovely, very "transparent" and "airy" in my vocabulary; beautiful midrange and voices are fabulous as is the sound stage.  I just long for more of that bottom octave.  I attribute it to years as a youth turning up the bass control on the family hi fi!  The kick drum, and bass guitar . . . just want to feel them a little more than the Nines deliver for me.

My local dealer has and recommended the Audio Physics (he thinks they match well to Naim he says) which is why I asked.  Auditioning speakers is a pain, and I am limited to what I can bring home from them in the back of my car :-)

Bart posted:

Thanks all.  Jan, Nic, my room is rather small. It is rectangular, approx 12 feet x 20 feet, and we sit the "short way".  The couch can easily be centered between the speakers, and the Naim Fraim is off to a side, not between the speakers.  The subwoofer is between the Fraim and one of the speakers.

I just want a bit more of the lowest octave.  The sub certainly provides this.  It's not perfect, but it holds together pretty well; the bass is not very disconnected by any means, but part of me thinks that thinks could always be better without a sub.  The sub is connected to RCA outputs of the SN2.

The Devore Nines are still lovely, very "transparent" and "airy" in my vocabulary; beautiful midrange and voices are fabulous as is the sound stage.  I just long for more of that bottom octave.  I attribute it to years as a youth turning up the bass control on the family hi fi!  The kick drum, and bass guitar . . . just want to feel them a little more than the Nines deliver for me.

My local dealer has and recommended the Audio Physics (he thinks they match well to Naim he says) which is why I asked.  Auditioning speakers is a pain, and I am limited to what I can bring home from them in the back of my car :-)

It is more generally accepted that in a room of that shape it is easier to get best SQ sitting the other way round. Yes, I know it often doesn't suit the room for a myriad of other reasons - but might be worth a play.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Bart posted:

Thanks all.  Jan, Nic, my room is rather small. It is rectangular, approx 12 feet x 20 feet, and we sit the "short way".  The couch can easily be centered between the speakers, and the Naim Fraim is off to a side, not between the speakers.  The subwoofer is between the Fraim and one of the speakers.

I just want a bit more of the lowest octave.  The sub certainly provides this.  It's not perfect, but it holds together pretty well; the bass is not very disconnected by any means, but part of me thinks that thinks could always be better without a sub.  The sub is connected to RCA outputs of the SN2.

The Devore Nines are still lovely, very "transparent" and "airy" in my vocabulary; beautiful midrange and voices are fabulous as is the sound stage.  I just long for more of that bottom octave.  I attribute it to years as a youth turning up the bass control on the family hi fi!  The kick drum, and bass guitar . . . just want to feel them a little more than the Nines deliver for me.

My local dealer has and recommended the Audio Physics (he thinks they match well to Naim he says) which is why I asked.  Auditioning speakers is a pain, and I am limited to what I can bring home from them in the back of my car :-)

It is more generally accepted that in a room of that shape it is easier to get best SQ sitting the other way round. Yes, I know it often doesn't suit the room for a myriad of other reasons - but might be worth a play.

Thanks . . . but too much invested in furniture, decor, etc.  The hi fi doesn't get that much influence in the home here :-)  (Neither do I!) I'm sure you're right (and have seen such arrangements in the 'show your system' threads over the years) but as they say, "it ain't happenin'"

In late 1988 heard an olive reference system & LP12 with Audio Physics (AP) Avanti 1 at a dealer's place. It was one of my HiFi sound defining moments (sorry, can't find better words). The dealer mentioned that AP speakers are/were developed with Naim gear as source and amplification equipment. Not sure if this is/was true but Naim and AP was definitely an excellent match at that time.

Since only limited funds were available the Avanti's were out reach. Originally entered the shop to buy Linn Nexus speakers but in the end left with a pair of AP Step 1. These small speakers have accompanied me ever since. Nice clear, crisp and focused sound, but definitely lacking bass. Today they are the rear speakers of my AV-system.

After earnin some decent money went on with some B&W 603 speakers (still in use in my AV-system). A couple of years later became obsessed with the omnidirectional Shahinians. Bought used Obelsik speakers and still love them very much.

In 2013 could not resist an offer of 2nd hand AP Avanti 5 speakers in excellent shape. The Avanti 5 is considered as the predecessor of the Avantera.

Since then the Avanti 5's compete against the Shahinian Obelisk's on my main system (LP12, SB Touch + RipNAS, CDS2/XP, 52/SC, 2x 135). Most of the time the Obelisk's are attached to the system (main reason: SWAMBO like their looks ). But from time to time the Avanti's get their go. Prior to this it means literally hard work because one Avanti speaker weights 40 kg and I have to lift both of them one floor down.

For a certain time (until SWAMBO declares end of peace) I leave both speaker systems in the room and have the chance for a direct comparison. The differences are stunningly (and of course they should). Often invite friends to these occasions and they cannot believe that two speaker systems of the 8000 -10000 $ class reproduce music so differently yet so good.

Some folks think that the Avanti 3 were better than the Avanti 5 (the latter was developed in the post Gerhard years). I don't know but what I can say my Avanti 5 are extremely good with the olive gear. After good positioning they deliver everything you want from a speaker of that investment class. In the beginning I had some doubts about the deep bass. The Shahinian Obelisk's go down to 30-25 Hz and can really make you feel it. But the Avanti's are a match and stay more focused. Since they don't need so much power they produce a much better soundstage at low volume compared to the Obelisk.

My Avanti 5 were actually one of the last pairs build and have most (or even all?) Avanterra specifications included (for instance the HHCT II treble and HHCM middle and bass woofers). To my knowledge the new Avanti 6 aren't in the same class anymore and range below the Virgo.

To summarize: I'm a very happy Avanti 5 owner (hopefully soon powered by a 272/300 system) and think Naim gear and AP speakers are still an excellent combination.

Bart posted:

Thanks all.  Jan, Nic, my room is rather small. It is rectangular, approx 12 feet x 20 feet, and we sit the "short way".  The couch can easily be centered between the speakers, and the Naim Fraim is off to a side, not between the speakers.  The subwoofer is between the Fraim and one of the speakers.

I just want a bit more of the lowest octave.  The sub certainly provides this.  It's not perfect, but it holds together pretty well; the bass is not very disconnected by any means, but part of me thinks that thinks could always be better without a sub.  The sub is connected to RCA outputs of the SN2.

The Devore Nines are still lovely, very "transparent" and "airy" in my vocabulary; beautiful midrange and voices are fabulous as is the sound stage.  I just long for more of that bottom octave.  I attribute it to years as a youth turning up the bass control on the family hi fi!  The kick drum, and bass guitar . . . just want to feel them a little more than the Nines deliver for me.

My local dealer has and recommended the Audio Physics (he thinks they match well to Naim he says) which is why I asked.  Auditioning speakers is a pain, and I am limited to what I can bring home from them in the back of my car :-)

I listened to a friend's system which is based on the Audio Physics Avantera. The loudspeakers are not driven by Naim amps but a Krell FPB 300 and matching preamp. The system is in a dedicated room, about 13' x 15' fully treated with Real Traps (many). Despite the side-firing woofers of the Avantera, the speakers sound very coherent and neutral. I would say, the clinical German sound. Just like the German football team - clinical.

I do not have experience with Devore speakers so can't comment on how the Devore Nines would compare with the Audio Physics. Perhaps you could try posting on Audiogon and you may get more replies.

Innocent Bystander posted:

ryder. posted:

I listened to a friend's system which is based on the Audio Physics Avantera. The loudspeakers are not driven by Naim amps but a Krell FPB 300 and matching preamp. The system is in a dedicated room, about 13' x 15' fully treated with Real Traps (many). Despite the side-firing woofers of the Avantera, the speakers sound very coherent and neutral. I would say, the clinical German sound. Just like the German football team - clinical.

I do not have experience with Devore speakers so can't comment on how the Devore Nines would compare with the Audio Physics. Perhaps you could try posting on Audiogon and you may get more replies.

I have to admit I do have trouble with some of the common descriptions of sound reproduction, and clinical is one of them. To me, the aim of any system is accuracy - reproduction of what is recorded. And that means if emotion is in the music, it is in the listening room.

Any loss of anything is undesirable, whether emotion, temporal accuracy (timing), frequency accuray, etc. similarly articicial enhancement of anything is undesirable, so any exaggeration for example of any part of the frequency spectrum to emphasise rhythm or improve clarity of voices to me is wrong. 

 

I prefer a balanced spectrum light that still allows me to see properly for working, reading, etc as opposed to a bright, cold, blueish-white light like they use in operating rooms (clinical).

Iconoclast posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

ryder. posted:

I listened to a friend's system which is based on the Audio Physics Avantera. The loudspeakers are not driven by Naim amps but a Krell FPB 300 and matching preamp. The system is in a dedicated room, about 13' x 15' fully treated with Real Traps (many). Despite the side-firing woofers of the Avantera, the speakers sound very coherent and neutral. I would say, the clinical German sound. Just like the German football team - clinical.

I do not have experience with Devore speakers so can't comment on how the Devore Nines would compare with the Audio Physics. Perhaps you could try posting on Audiogon and you may get more replies.

I have to admit I do have trouble with some of the common descriptions of sound reproduction, and clinical is one of them. To me, the aim of any system is accuracy - reproduction of what is recorded. And that means if emotion is in the music, it is in the listening room.

Any loss of anything is undesirable, whether emotion, temporal accuracy (timing), frequency accuray, etc. similarly articicial enhancement of anything is undesirable, so any exaggeration for example of any part of the frequency spectrum to emphasise rhythm or improve clarity of voices to me is wrong. 

 

I prefer a balanced spectrum light that still allows me to see properly for working, reading, etc as opposed to a bright, cold, blueish-white light like they use in operating rooms (clinical).

Ok, that I understand, and if that is clinical then I understand the concept: so no blue-white light of the type most commonly known as cold white in LED or fluorescent light terms, with colour temperature of perhaps 8-10k, which are good for clarity of vision looking at fine detail when working.

But is the  interpretation of balanced  specctrum light maybe a  relatively tungsten light, which is a continuum light source but with an emission that increases steadily from the blue to the red end on the spectrum, or maybe a CFL with mixed phosphors trying to simulate tungsten or even daylight, giving peaks in red, blue and green but with troughs in between?  Or is it a sophisticated true sunlight simulated spectrum source, with a broad peak centred in the middle of the visible spectrum, giving exeactly the same colour rendition as outdoors in daylight? This latter  to me is true hifi, but some people's prferences are for the enhancements of some things or suppression of others.

At the risk of diverting a bit here, a few years ago in a house illuminated with CFL lamps i tried to find a colour of paint for a particular wall, and ended up getting about a dozen different testers of nominally very similar colours to try - and it was astonishing how different some looked under the artificial light compared to daylight, as the different spectral peaks and troughs of the CFLs reflected differently, in some cases two paints looking almost identical in daylight looked completely different at night - and then changing to a different brand of CFL changed the effect , even when the two different CFLs subjectively seemed about the same in colour.

No such thing as 'accuracy' in hifi.

gary yeowell posted:

No such thing as 'accuracy' in hifi.

Precision might be a better word. You can't take a recording with flabby bass and make it sound tight with a good hifi system/room but you can definitely do the opposite with a crappy one.

Of course It'll never sound exactly like ''live''...

gary yeowell posted:

No such thing as 'accuracy' in hifi.

However far from accurate systems may be, that need not detract from accuracy as a target for each and every component/combination to strive to achieve, and is what I want them to achieve, and more so than precision.

I agree than speakers in particular are a long way from being accurate, but at least on the basis of my own experience and everything I've heard others say, every model sounds completely different from every other model, even in the moderately expensive £10-£20k bracket...

Iconoclast posted:

gary yeowell posted:

No such thing as 'accuracy' in hifi.

Precision might be a better word. You can't take a recording with flabby bass and make it sound tight with a good hifi system/room but you can definitely do the opposite with a crappy one.

Of course It'll never sound exactly like ''live''...I think that is spot on.. In domestic quality audio replay systems it's about precision, not accuracy.. That is its about the relative performance... and in my experience the speaker / room coupling is the most fundamental component to get right. To use the above example the speaker / room coupling is akin to the wavelengths emitted from the light source... If too restrictive or discontinuous then the audio electronics just like the paint testers

I think that is spot on.. In domestic quality audio replay systems it's about precision, as opposed to accuracy.. That is its about the relative performance... and in my experience the speaker / room coupling is the most fundamental component to get right. To use the above example the speaker / room coupling is akin to the wavelengths emitted from the light source... If too restrictive or discontinuous then just as with the light source and paint testers  the audio electronics are going to fail to provide the required match.

Simon

The only people in a position to assess accuracy would be those present during the original recording and then it would be only from memory. Once music is recorded it becomes an artifact of the original performance. Any replay is inherently colored, just a matter of which hue you prefer or might happen to envision is more precise. A rather obvious statement I realize, but in the end you're going to choose gear you most enjoy listening to. Whether that's closer to or farther from accurate or precise becomes immaterial.

joerand posted:

The only people in a position to assess accuracy would be those present during the original recording and then it would be only from memory. Once music is recorded it becomes an artifact of the original performance. Any replay is inherently colored, just a matter of which hue you prefer or might happen to envision is more precise. A rather obvious statement I realize, but in the end you're going to choose gear you most enjoy listening to. Whether that's closer to or farther from accurate or precise becomes immaterial.

Agreed! Just choose the flavour of colouration you enjoy, and get on with it.

I recognise and fully agree Simon's and Joerand's last posts, and in terms of a listener choosing gear they are spot on.  In particular the speaker-room interaction means that in reality speaker manufacturers could never have much hope of achieving true accuracy converting the electrical signal to the intended audio one at the listener's ears, as even by designing a range of models for specific room types, the myriad of real life room variations would cause quite significant differences in practice. My own experience cited elsewhere on this forum where I described playing my old IMFs outdoors - effectively removing most room effects - is a salutory  example of difference between design achievement and practical application, and of the psychological acceptance of the real life deficiencies in the normal situation.

However, the practical limits to its achievement don't alter my belief that the aim of hifi "should" be to get as close as possible to presenting an accurate portrayal of the original recording. Of course it is indeed all subjective, and listeners will have their own perceptions including those that may be based on 'memories' of what a performance sounded like, and fundamentally also based on it all being a psychoacoustic illusion arising from two channels of sound (or in George's case, one). So yes, the listener must choose the sound s/he likes (limited by affordability). 

ryder. posted:

Bart posted:

Thanks all.  Jan, Nic, my room is rather small. It is rectangular, approx 12 feet x 20 feet, and we sit the "short way".  The couch can easily be centered between the speakers, and the Naim Fraim is off to a side, not between the speakers.  The subwoofer is between the Fraim and one of the speakers.

I just want a bit more of the lowest octave.  The sub certainly provides this.  It's not perfect, but it holds together pretty well; the bass is not very disconnected by any means, but part of me thinks that thinks could always be better without a sub.  The sub is connected to RCA outputs of the SN2.

The Devore Nines are still lovely, very "transparent" and "airy" in my vocabulary; beautiful midrange and voices are fabulous as is the sound stage.  I just long for more of that bottom octave.  I attribute it to years as a youth turning up the bass control on the family hi fi!  The kick drum, and bass guitar . . . just want to feel them a little more than the Nines deliver for me.

My local dealer has and recommended the Audio Physics (he thinks they match well to Naim he says) which is why I asked.  Auditioning speakers is a pain, and I am limited to what I can bring home from them in the back of my car :-)

I listened to a friend's system which is based on the Audio Physics Avantera. The loudspeakers are not driven by Naim amps but a Krell FPB 300 and matching preamp. The system is in a dedicated room, about 13' x 15' fully treated with Real Traps (many). Despite the side-firing woofers of the Avantera, the speakers sound very coherent and neutral. I would say, the clinical German sound. Just like the German football team - clinical.

I do not have experience with Devore speakers so can't comment on how the Devore Nines would compare with the Audio Physics. Perhaps you could try posting on Audiogon and you may get more replies.

I think that Krell is much higher output than my SN2.  If I had a high current amp, I'd probably go with Magico speakers in some crazy color :-)