Audio Crossroads: Hearing Aids?

Sounds like a great start Roger. My own experience is that you can easily get the audiologist to tweak things to be much better than week one, but it does take some persistence on your part, so welcome to the world of electronically-enabled more-youthful hearing! Wanting everything louder in the boardroom is also what I find, but you can do that.  You need that remote control! In Naim terms, it's nearly free.

best

David

Sorry I mean Sloop John B, not Roger......

David Hendon posted:

You can indeed have a remote control for those Phonaks and I really would recommend you do. Even if you don't use it most of the time, being able to turn them up or down a bit is great, especially if you don't like what you are hearing.

When you are through your first week or two, I'd be happy to chat on the phone if you would like.

best

David

Well an eventful 2 weeks. Last week I had to take out the hearing aids as the left one seemed to have gone mad, like the volume on it was higher than the right. 

The return visit to the audiologist brought about replacement ( were they called transducers?) of the tubes that go from hearing aid to ear. 

A program change brought about by my observations of when they were okay has made the music slightly worse unfortunately, but this should be rectified at next visit. 

I'd like to take you up on your kind offer David and have a chat with you about your experiences and what can be definitely rectified and what compromises I may have to live with. 

My email address is

sloop4johnb    <at> eircom.net

thanks

John  

SJB

If they are connected by a thin wire, then the bit that goes in your ear is called a receiver, as in receiver in canal or RIC. You can also have the receiver in the hearing aid and have a hollow tube into your ear, but that ends in a mould or a "dome". I suspect you have the former.

i'll email you later (have to go out to pick up my wife now).

best

David

A thread with a similar theme started yesterday: https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...ly=55912706859178242

" I went for the ReSound Linx2 9 with RIE (receiver in the ear). These are Made for iPhone hearing aids and come with an app to change settings."

I ordered a set of these today.   The audiologist and prescribing physician both said these are the best they have seen and compared to Phonak they integrate most of the functions into the unit instead of requiring other wearables.    They cost like a Naim component ($4800 for the pair!) but my insurance should cover about $3000 of the investment, and may get me a cheaper price with a group buy.   The iPhone integration sounds interesting.   I doubt they will take the place of my beloved Etymotics or my newish Shure 535's.   But they are said to integrate with iPhone telephone and music functions so we will see.  They also know where you are so if you have set them before for a restaurant or museum they revert to what you liked before.    

Hope I can keep from losing them!

Skip

I have these same aids and they are the best I have had. They cost more than that in the UK, about £4500 a pair with ongoing support.

The integration between the iPhone and aids works well, but don't expect anything HiFi from the music streaming. The bit rate on the low energy Bluetooth link between iPhone and hearing aids is much too low, presumably for battery life reasons and anyway the iPhone setting is optimised for phone calls. Music streamed from your iPhone sounds truly terrible. But one very good thing that you didn't mention is that the iPhone app also provides tone controls and balance as well as volume. These are genuinely useful both for listening to your Naim and for live concerts.

i find it takes a lot of visits to the audiologist to get everything right, but once he understand what you are looking for, it takes only a couple of minutes for him to log into your hearing aids, make the adjustment and save it, so you can have 5 or 10 min appointments. The fitting software also connects to the aids wirelessly, so is much more convenient than the old methods with thin wires!

best

David

So what is it like for listening to hifi? Does it mean no point in keeping expensive kit (if not appreciated by afamily)?

seems to me we need to impress on eveyone the need to get your perfect setup before say age of 50 to get a few years enjoyment out of it at its best!

Hearing aIds aren't like glasses. They can't put back what has gone but they can help a lot. If you have a hearing loss then it affects all aspects of your life and it becomes the new normal. Hearing aids can improve that hugely. If listening to music is an important part of your life, then you dont just stop listening because you have started wearing hearing aids. But to get the benefit of Naim-type equipment, the aids need very careful adjustment.

As I think I said much earlier in this thread, it was the accidental discovery that after changing my hearing aids I could again easily hear the difference between a 320 Kbps MP3 and a CD rip into WAV that led to all of my Naim purchasing, which has been quite extensive in the last 18 months.

But everyone is different, so what works for my ears won't necessarily work for someone else. My own view though is that even if I can't hear 8KHz any more  and even though my ears are 20dB different from one another in sensitivity and a lot more than that different from what they were like when I was 20, I am still acutely irritated by distortion and Naim equipment serves up my music in a way that sounds relaxing, musical and even exciting to me.  So in my book it's well worth spending the money on both the best hearing aids and Naim hifi.

best

David

Skip posted:

" I went for the ReSound Linx2 9 with RIE (receiver in the ear). These are Made for iPhone hearing aids and come with an app to change settings."

I ordered a set of these today.   The audiologist and prescribing physician both said these are the best they have seen and compared to Phonak they integrate most of the functions into the unit instead of requiring other wearables.    They cost like a Naim component ($4800 for the pair!) but my insurance should cover about $3000 of the investment, and may get me a cheaper price with a group buy.   The iPhone integration sounds interesting.   I doubt they will take the place of my beloved Etymotics or my newish Shure 535's.   But they are said to integrate with iPhone telephone and music functions so we will see.  They also know where you are so if you have set them before for a restaurant or museum they revert to what you liked before.    

Hope I can keep from losing them!

 

Well Skip,

how are you getting on with these?

I've just ordered a pair (dearer again in Ireland €6400) as I was not completely satisfied with my Phonak trial and thought it would be silly not to try these.

SJB

Picking them up tomorrow morning, just in time for a client luncheon in a restaurant.  

Timing, always.

Will let you know when I have them figured out.  

Skip

As I said earlier in the thread, I have had these same Linx2 aids for a year now. You probably know all this, but in case not, you can get your audiologist to set up to 4 programs for you. I have All Around (their normal program with all the clever processing switched on), Restaurant (which helps handle understanding speech in a noisy environment), Music (with all the clever processing switched off of course), and Outdoors (which allows you to turn the wind filter up and down - useful on those long windy walks!). Personally I find they handle the restaurant situation so well in the normal setting that I almost never switch to Restaurant mode, but it is something to try yourself! Hope they go well.

best

David

This is great stuff to learn - and in particular I look forward to knowing how they help with music.

whilst I don't at present believe I have a need, the restaurant situation is definitely creeping up on me and no doubt one day will become sufficiently significant to do something about, while    as music is my passion I want to ensure maximum enjoyment as long as possible.

Alternatively of course not investing in good hearing aid when the time comes has a massive financial advantage, saving not only the direct cost, but enabling sale of Hifi and replacement with a cheap boom box with no discernible difference...

Just picked mine up today.  ReSound Linx Squared 9.    I got the maximum ReSound Linx  and they cost $5k a pair in the US.  My health plan pays about 60% and gets me a 60 day trial and a $250 replacement warranty for 3 years. This is the new model, top of the line, with the small housing for the battery.  

They have five pre-set settings:  All-Around, Restaurant, Traffic (or Outdoor), and Music.  All of these can be customized but have not fiddled with the default setting.  

The audiologist sets them so your hearing is flat across the spectrum.  That was actually too bright and artificial for me and too loud in the bass.  (I may have Naim Audio in my DNA by now!)   We played with them to get something close to flat-ish.  If any of you have an RIAA curve that I can share with her, that might help me.  My email is in my profile.

So far I have used the All-Around, the Restaurant (for TV watching), and the Music.     I particularly like the Restaurant because I can focus them and watch TV at  lower volume and tune out all the background noise.  It is tunnel vision for your ears!  At a restaurant table, you can adjust the focus for a single dining partner or a table for four, like changing lenses on a camera.  You can also tune out the background noise in the restaurant but I have not tried that feature.    You can also save the setting for the next time you visit the same restaurant as a "Favorite", which is interesting to me, since my lovely wife's favorite restaurants are often too loud for me.   

Like most audio upgrades, I need to give it a few days.   In audio review parlance, "I was not prepared" for the difference in All Around wear.   The Restaurant setting works well for voices on TV, and can tune out background noise for restaurants.  The benefit is "not subtle."  The Music setting is my project for the weekend.  The highs sound pretty digital to me.  I already intend to swap out the Nordost Frey 2 PC in favor of the Powerline.    I am not hating the ReSound.  But I know they are in there.  The regular settings sound a little artificial.  My own voice sounds weird.  I am sure the "need a few days break in to come on song."   I expect they will make my Naim system sound too bright but may settle down over time.   The swap back to the Powerline will help that and I may adjust the loading lower in the Superline eventually.  But I intend to give it a few days.   

From a vanity standpoint, I can barely tell I am wearing them from my vantage point in the mirror.   The size of the unit is totally related to battery life.   As I become less self-conscious about what people think, I "may go for a bigger power cord."  They can answer my iPhone in lieu of a headset and they sound pretty good on the phone.  I don't think they will take the place of my wired Shure 535's which are in a different league altogether.   They don't do James Brown Tight which is what I am used to at home and with the Shures.   I wish their Bluetooth was as good as the UQ2b, given the price they charge.   They might be good for podcasts and ok for Spotify while driving.   The "WAF factor" is very good so far.  The Bluetooth eats the battery life which is already in the range of less than a week with the smallest ReSound unit.

The way the audiologists talk, the hearing aid retrains your brain to hear normally with less straining, much the way Viagra retrains your lower unit.  (I presume this is placebo effect plus confidence, plus marketing, plus WAF maybe?  Still early days.)  Tinnitus, as it was explained to me,  is from lost hearing and the frustrated nerves screaming for input.  The MD, not the audiologist, says he has seen some benefit to tinnitus with using hearing aids.  He gets the cutting edge since he is in the business and he uses the ReSound like mine and loves them.  He is a power user.  The Phonak will do the same kind of things but you have to buy accessories with the Phonak and carry them.  The ReSound is self contained with no external accessories.

My thinking on things like this is "Buy once, cry once."  That has been my Naim upgrade philosophy and none of that was covered by my health plan.  Do it while you are still young enough to enjoy it is why people buy anything like Naim, Porsche, or hearing aids evidently.  And with hearing aids, the earlier you get them the more you appreciate the benefit.  Just like a Porsche or a NAC 552 - NAP 500.

A 61, I resist things that make me feel older and embrace things that make me feel younger.    Not sure how these ReSounds fit on that spectrum but I have enjoyed the first day with them.  

Hi Skip

Very interesting review. Some random comments:

Your brain getting used to them is definitely real and your audiologist probably set them to only partly compensate immediately. They have a built in "acclimatisation" setting which adjusts gradually over s few days or weeks. Normally they use that for first timers and turn it off for people who are experienced users.

There are large numbers of preset programs your audio can access but you can only have four on the aids at any one time. And you can adjust them all independently. I have the music programme higher frequencies backed off a bit compared to the other programs to get rid of that digital sound you mention, but it is just a matter of seeing what you like.

The Bluetooth will never be as good as the Naim Bluetooth because necessarily it is Low Energy Bluetooth not full fat Bluetooth. I get about four days from a 320 battery using streaming to make calls and using the iPhone app constantly.

its worth persevering with All Around because that is the programme which turns on all the clever processing for good all round hearing. If it still sounds wrong in a week or so then get it adjusted.

Before you go to get adjustments made, especially to music, unless your ears are exactly the same it is worth listening to the same thing with just one aid in and then the other because the brain is very good at taking a sound from mainly one ear and making you think it is both. For example  the digital sounding high frequencies you mention could've both ears or could just be one and the audiologist needs to know that to adjust it right.

best

David

For those interested, this link:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2...on-speech-not-music/

Retweeted by @ResoundUK, was posted by @HearingReview:

Marshall Chasin sheds light on why #frequency compression works for #speech but not for #music. #audpeeps #audiology http://ow.ly/aPVM300MhXq

I always have to switch my Linx^2 9s to Music setting when playing my tuned percussion instrument (a Xylosynth midi with Vibraphone synth on a Mac Mini playing through a fully upgraded Uniti) to avoid artifacts (thought my speakers had blown at first!) This setup works well for me as I can play along with music also being played from the Mac Mini.

Roger

noname posted:

For those interested, this link:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2...on-speech-not-music/

Retweeted by @ResoundUK, was posted by @HearingReview:

Marshall Chasin sheds light on why #frequency compression works for #speech but not for #music. #audpeeps #audiology http://ow.ly/aPVM300MhXq

I always have to switch my Linx^2 9s to Music setting when playing my tuned percussion instrument (a Xylosynth midi with Vibraphone synth on a Mac Mini playing through a fully upgraded Uniti) to avoid artifacts (thought my speakers had blown at first!) This setup works well for me as I can play along with music also being played from the Mac Mini.

Roger

 

 

This is very interesting Roger and completely aligns with my own experience. At one time it was possible to set a previous pair of aids to "linear" which had just a single frequency response curve for all signal levels.  I used that for music, then it vanished in a firmware upgrade, and I had to get the audiologist to adjust the three curves to be the same, which the fitting software didn't like much.

There is another anomaly which affects music on some hearing aids and this is a peculiarity of the anti-feedback software in the aids. I remember it was a problem with some Widex aids I had for a while. What happens is that the feedback software hears a musical tone (for example a note played on a flute) as feedback and tries to cancel it with a similar out of phase tone. Because it doesn't succeed in cancelling the musical tone, the software wobbles the out of phase tone around and it usually continues after the musical tone has stopped.  I gather this effect is called "entrainment" and you can find some discussion of it in relation to hearing aids if you google the word, although the first time I looked mainly I seemed to find references to bridges oscillating in sympathy with soldiers marching across them! One of the things I like about the Resound Linx2 aids is that I don't hear any entrainment providing the music mode with its special anti-feedback setting is selected.

i have asked four different experienced audiologists about entrainment as applied to hearing aids and none of them was aware of it or of the significance to music listening.

best

David

So I don't have to strip out the informative link here I've moved this over to the Padded Cell.

Actually reading the article again, it is talking about frequency compression whereas I was talking about level compression. But I also agree with what he says about frequency compression. I would have thought turning it off for music was a no-brainer, but we probably shouldn't assume that audiologists understand about listening to music. Some certainly will but in my experience many don't.

best

David

Updating my experience which I hope some may find useful. 

I trialled a pair of resound Linx2 after hearing so many positive things about them here. For speech they were as good if not better than the Phonak but music had a slightly artificial quality, music sounded slightly different, the playlist "hearing aid test", songs I know off by heart by this stage were slightly different, the only way I have to describe it as like a slightly wider sound stage. 

I go the printout of the settings and David kinkdly walked me through them and they were identical to his. It was not obvious at all where changing settings would improve things. 

So I went back to my original Phonaks. 

What I gained from the whole experience and would advise any new hearing aid user is that if you are not satisfied with music settings after they are optimised, try a different manufacturer's offering. I'd never buy a piece of Hifi kit without having a comparison yet I was nearly going to do that with probably the most important piece of Hifi kit I was buying. I ended up with my original Phonaks but I now have the knowledge of what they do versus the competition and am willing to compromise some ease of use and perhaps a slightly more digital tone to voices in order for my music to sound, in truth, better than it has done in years. 

The usual caveats " in my room, TO MY EARS" are obviously even more relevant to this discussion. 

SJB

I have the ReSound Linx 9 Squared.   The music setting has room for improvement but it is not a deal breaker at least for me.  I can always take out the ReSounds and turn up the music, so I am no worse off.    I have not been happy with the BlueTooth and intend to get that checked.  It cuts out and eats battery.   I do like the ability to use the ReSound as a hands free phone device, but it is a crappy BlueTooth earbud for audio.   I do like the multiple settings because I can tune them using my iPhone to the meeting or restaurant I am in.    Do not under estimate this feature!   With it and a little practice, you can go anywhere and hear better than anybody else!   It is not exactly high fidelity, but it is a great improvement over doing nothing.  

The units are also very discrete.  They are easy to wear and work well, and I am still getting them adjusted.    I understand that the Phonak require external modules to do everything the ReSound do with on board settings.  Is that correct?  What will it do without the modules?  What do the modules add?  It may be the external modules function much better than having everything on board, much like separates vs. an integrated solution.    I am sure all the extra modules require extra batteries.  

I am staying with the ReSound at least through my next appointment.  I must say, though, it is shocking that these little things cost $5000 a pair ( private pay) and last about three years.  Resist as long as you can.   

Skip posted:

I have the ReSound Linx 9 Squared.   The music setting has room for improvement but it is not a deal breaker at least for me.  I can always take out the ReSounds and turn up the music, so I am no worse off.    I have not been happy with the BlueTooth and intend to get that checked.  It cuts out and eats battery.   I do like the ability to use the ReSound as a hands free phone device, but it is a crappy BlueTooth earbud for audio.   I do like the multiple settings because I can tune them using my iPhone to the meeting or restaurant I am in.    Do not under estimate this feature!   With it and a little practice, you can go anywhere and hear better than anybody else!   It is not exactly high fidelity, but it is a great improvement over doing nothing.  

The units are also very discrete.  They are easy to wear and work well, and I am still getting them adjusted.    I understand that the Phonak require external modules to do everything the ReSound do with on board settings.  Is that correct?  What will it do without the modules?  What do the modules add?  It may be the external modules function much better than having everything on board, much like separates vs. an integrated solution.    I am sure all the extra modules require extra batteries.  

I am staying with the ReSound at least through my next appointment.  I must say, though, it is shocking that these little things cost $5000 a pair ( private pay) and last about three years.  Resist as long as you can.   

As I mentioned before, I use these same aids. I found them a great improvement on earlier aids including Phonak but SJB tells me that his audiologist says that Phonak have done a lot of work on their music performance since the date of the ones I used ie four years ago.

On the streaming performance of the Resound linx 9 squared, I am afraid that you will probably find that yours are working as expected. The reason for the very poor performance on streaming music is because they are using a very low power, low bit rate, version of Bluetooth for streaming known as Bluetooth Low Energy (aka Bluetooth Smart) and the reason for that is to minimise battery consumption.  Even with very little streaming use, I find each aid uses two 312 batteries in about a week and if you do much streaming of music or phone calls, that is likely to get worse. This is twice the battery consumption of my previous aids (which were Widex) But the Resounds are very convenient and the IOS app give very good control. Recently a Resound representative told me that they are looking to increase the functionality of the app in future and since the actual programming is also done using Bluetooth, potentially the app could be made to change almost anything.

Best

David

Skip posted:

 

The units are also very discrete.  They are easy to wear and work well, and I am still getting them adjusted.    I understand that the Phonak require external modules to do everything the ReSound do with on board settings.  Is that correct?  What will it do without the modules?  What do the modules add?  It may be the external modules function much better than having everything on board, much like separates vs. an integrated solution.    I am sure all the extra modules require extra batteries.  

 

The Resound certainly offer more user interaction, the ComPilot (module)  you need get the Phonak to connect via bluetooth acts itself as a remote control but the app itself has no settings that cannot be accessed through the button on the aids themselves so Resound wins clearly here.

Strangely my main reason for resisting getting Hearing aids was for audio and now I much prefer to listen to audio with them in and on. My hearing loss is mainly in the higher frequency area with near normal for lower frequencies so adjusting the volume doesn't work for me that well.

But as with everything we all will find we have different hearing (loss) and our brains modulate what we hear differently.

SJB