Speaker cables

Interesting reflections on your hi-fi journey Wilson, but as you will observe from many speaker cable threads on this forum, they certainly do make a considerable difference to the listening experience.

It's a case of working out what works best for the system you have, so that the music flows effortlessly and maximises the quality of your source components. Obviously it goes without saying, your interconnects are just as important....

On both my main systems in UK and France, I use XLR balanced connections. I asked a friend who used to own a recording studio near Geneva in Switzerland and has a doctorate in sound engineering, what he would recommend when I was setting up the new main system in my French house. He said that they make up all their own cables. They used all balanced cables made from Gotham Swiss cables or German Sommer cables and solder on Neutrik metal plugs with Mundorf silver/gold/tin solder. This does not work out terribly expensive e.g. a 1.5M pair of Sommer 200-031 cable, with the top quality Neutrik plugs, will cost me around £20. He went on to say, that this is what most recording studios and broadcast organisations in Europe use, so as the music you listen to, will have travelled through dozens if not hundreds of metres of such cables before it reaches you, it is totally pointless using anything more expensive on your own interconnects, as physics says, you cannot improve the signal. I believe that a standard pair of XLR balanced cables made as above, will out-perform the most expensive RCA-RCA interconnect. 

On the smaller systems in my bedroom or study in both houses, I use Chord Cobra RCA-RCA interconnects, which I think represent a reasonable balance between cost and quality. The only analogue interconnects I use on any of my systems are from the DAC to the amplifier or pre-amplifier and also to the sub-woofers. On my large French system there are XLR cables from the pre to the power amplifier. All the other connections are digital, either optical or 75Ω Co-ax. 

BTW my friend fell about laughing when I asked him about cables which show the direction they should be connected in from source to target. His reply was "depends whether your system is using left hand spin electrons or right hand spin electrons." 

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

The conclusion I have come to is that logic may not work on cables but trial and error, with enough persistence, usually will. 

Experiment with various mains cords or power strips and you may cast any logic completely to the wind.

Seems the nature of audiophilia - there are no logical or correct suppositions - only what you find to your personal liking.

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

BTW my friend fell about laughing when I asked him about cables which show the direction they should be connected in from source to target. His reply was "depends whether your system is using left hand spin electrons or right hand spin electrons." 

I couldn't find reference to this in the CDX2 manual... but I'm guessing that any CD player is going to emit right hand spin electrons  (based on the direction of spin of the CD as viewed from the top).   However, does anyone have any ideas about how I can establish this for my NDS ?  (which afaik doesn't have any spinning parts).

Roger

A few thoughts in response to the OP's first two posts...

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

I used to think that there was more BS talked about speaker cables than almost any other subject in hifi.

There is a lot of rubbish written about cabling in general confusing different parts of the subject, confusing opinions with facts and facts with opinions.

 

However a couple of years ago, I replaced my old Quad set up (66/606 and 22L2 speakers) [...] I reused the Chord Silverscreen speaker cables, [and it] was horrible, being bright enough to make your ears bleed. I was about to sell the ATC's and replace with far gentler Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 speakers but just before I did that I brought back the RiverCable Starflex speaker cables, I was using on my main system in France, not expecting much. They transformed the sound, taming the ATC's to the desired ultra precise from shrieking, over-bright. I therefore ordered another pair from the USA for my UK system. 

When I recently replaced the Quad 77 on my UK bedroom system with a new/old stock NAIT-5i-2, the previous system had very short old Gale speaker cables, about 0.75M. [...] the only long cables I found, were the 3.5M long pair of Chord Silverscreen speaker cables. [...] To my very pleasant surprise, they seem to suit the NAIT and the DALI Royal Menuet Mk.2 speakers beautifully. [...] The conclusion I have come to is that logic may not work on cables but trial and error, with enough persistence, usually will. 

Note that [...] signifies where I have cut or replaced words to shorten your story, I don't think I have changed the meaning.

There can be interaction between amplifiers, speakers and cables which are not altogether obvious.  Some people consider this a slightly loony suggestion; but I have a theory that the interaction needs looking at akin to chaos theory - that is that very small changes which are measurable can have wildly differing results.  There is nothing exotic required about the measurements; just that many measurements add up.

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

On both my main systems in UK and France, I use XLR balanced connections. I asked a friend who used to own a recording studio near Geneva in Switzerland and has a doctorate in sound engineering, what he would recommend when I was setting up the new main system in my French house. He said that they make up all their own cables. [...] I believe that a standard pair of XLR balanced cables made as above, will out-perform the most expensive RCA-RCA interconnect. 

This is where some BS (or perhaps self justification) comes back in.  While there are similarities I don't think the "well the professional recording studios / broadcast studios do it; so its good for my HiFi" train of though necessarily works.  

First off, you have to remember that there are different requirements in a studio compared to the home environment: the main one being that of reliability.  Studios will be plugging and unplugging cables day in, day out and therefore need a cable and connector which will live up to this treatment - XLR are perfect being rugged / durable and pretty much bomb proof; try standing on a Neutrik XLR compared with any RCA / Phone and (in both cases) you will get a sore foot, but there is also more likelihood that the XLR will survive.

Secondly you have to consider the signals, distances and the environment through which they are being routed.  Microphone signals are very small (compared to line level) and are being transmitted over a dozen or more meters through unknown levels of electrical noise to a mixing desk; then the output of that desk (albeit now higher level) is being transmitted a good distance to amplifiers / powered speakers.  The noise rejection of balanced systems in this situation makes it ideal.

In a HiFi however, balance can solve certain problems, but is often a band aid to mismatched or badly designed equipment.  With a few exceptions, HiFi equipment is not designed to be "fully balanced" offering only balanced inputs and outputs - that is the signal is converted just prior to the output of a source / pre-amp output; then converted again on the input to an amplifier.  This conversion while very good is never truly transparent.  In terms of sound quality RCA can be the equal and removed the complexity required for balanced operation.

On the smaller systems in my bedroom or study in both houses, I use Chord Cobra RCA-RCA interconnects, which I think represent a reasonable balance between cost and quality. [...]

BTW my friend fell about laughing when I asked him about cables which show the direction they should be connected in from source to target. His reply was "depends whether your system is using left hand spin electrons or right hand spin electrons." 

Many (so called) "HiFi" interconnects (including iirc Chord) use a "pseudo-balanced" wiring.  In this two core cable plus shield is used; with signal and signal ground connected to the two cores and the shield connected only one end.  This is done to help reduce ground loops and can actually lead to a "directional" cable; so for your friend (I assume the one with a Doctorate in Sound Engineering) to laugh at cables having directionality shows a lack of understanding over how such cables are constructed and is a classic example of why sound engineers (however well qualified) aren't the font of all knowledge when it comes to wiring your HiFi.

rjstaines posted:

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

BTW my friend fell about laughing when I asked him about cables which show the direction they should be connected in from source to target. His reply was "depends whether your system is using left hand spin electrons or right hand spin electrons." 

I couldn't find reference to this in the CDX2 manual... but I'm guessing that any CD player is going to emit right hand spin electrons  (based on the direction of spin of the CD as viewed from the top).   However, does anyone have any ideas about how I can establish this for my NDS ?  (which afaik doesn't have any spinning parts).

I think it depends if you are in Northern or Southern hemisphere!

rjstaines posted:

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

BTW my friend fell about laughing when I asked him about cables which show the direction they should be connected in from source to target. His reply was "depends whether your system is using left hand spin electrons or right hand spin electrons." 

I couldn't find reference to this in the CDX2 manual... but I'm guessing that any CD player is going to emit right hand spin electrons  (based on the direction of spin of the CD as viewed from the top).   However, does anyone have any ideas about how I can establish this for my NDS ?  (which afaik doesn't have any spinning parts).

Roger

You could test this theory by emigrating to the southern hemisphere, where your music would then play backwards :-p

It's a little more complex than that I think. The spin and movement point in the same direction with right handed electrons. The spin and movement are in opposite directions for left handed electrons. 

Finkfan posted:

It's a little more complex than that I think. The spin and movement point in the same direction with right handed electrons. The spin and movement are in opposite directions for left handed electrons. 

Presumably this is why if you do something wrong, the sound gets all screwed up......

best

David

wilsonlaidlaw posted:

I used to think that there was more BS talked about speaker cables than almost any other subject in hifi. There was a very interesting blind listening test done in Australia and written up in one of their hifi mags. They had a variety of experts in the listening panel, ranging from professional musicians, through recording engineers to hifi writers. The conclusion they came to was that the experts could not detect which was the expensive and which the cheap, between cables made out of platinum plated unobtanium, rubbed with snake oil by virgins under a new moon on the slopes of Mount Fuji, costing thousands of dollars and a pair made out of soldered together coat hangers. 

However a couple of years ago, I replaced my old Quad set up (66/606 and 22L2 speakers) on my main UK system, with a Krell KAV 300iL integrated amp and ATC SCM 19 speakers plus an ATC C1 subwoofer. I reused the Chord Silverscreen speaker cables, that had worked just fine on the Quad set up. The Krell/ATC combo was horrible, being bright enough to make your ears bleed. I was about to sell the ATC's and replace with far gentler Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 speakers but just before I did that I brought back the RiverCable Starflex speaker cables, I was using on my main system in France, not expecting much. They transformed the sound, taming the ATC's to the desired ultra precise from shrieking, over-bright. I therefore ordered another pair from the USA for my UK system. 

When I recently replaced the Quad 77 on my UK bedroom system with a new/old stock NAIT-5i-2, the previous system had very short old Gale speaker cables, about 0.75M. I had read up all about the required inductance/low capacitance/cable length requirement of Naim amplifiers. I searched through my cupboard containing over 50 years worth of old/replaced/unused hifi equipment, the only long cables I found, were the 3.5M long pair of Chord Silverscreen speaker cables. I connected them with proper NAIM plugs at the amp end but with some trepidation, after my bad experience with the Krell and ATC's. To my very pleasant surprise, they seem to suit the NAIT and the DALI Royal Menuet Mk.2 speakers beautifully. The amplifier stays very cool, so no problem there. I was fully prepared to junk them and buy some Naim NACA 5 cables but on the basis of "if it ain't broke - don't fix it", they will be staying in situ. The conclusion I have come to is that logic may not work on cables but trial and error, with enough persistence, usually will. 

Wilson

yes I agree fom a sound point of view ' sound is subjective and many people have many differing opinions about lots of differing eclectic mixes of amp' speaker cable and banana plugs...The newer naim amps are designed to run at the correct temprature with Nac a5 thus giving best sound reproduction as the amp is not running too cool or too warm.. The resistance that two  four to five meter lengths of nAC A5 exert on the amp are made give optimum sound when used with Naim Amplifiers...The older amps run on nac 4 ...Every amp manufacurer has their own recomendation as to speaker wire used...ergo if products are designed around each other ' then they will work at best with each other...