Pro-Ject VC-S record cleaning machine

Hi, I asked the owner of my local vinyl shop a while ago, what's the best vinyl cleaning machine on the market? Answer was don't bother, just use a little fairy liquid and rinse, which could be a problem if you're wanting to clean 1000 albums !!! He's had his shop for over twenty years, and he had not found a machine that is worth the money...but of course it's just one opinion.....

wenger2015 posted:

Hi, I asked the owner of my local vinyl shop a while ago, what's the best vinyl cleaning machine on the market? Answer was don't bother, just use a little fairy liquid and rinse, which could be a problem if you're wanting to clean 1000 albums !!! He's had his shop for over twenty years, and he had not found a machine that is worth the money...but of course it's just one opinion.....

Thanks wenger2015

I wouldn't follow that advice at all, or buy records that had been treated in that way, but thanks for taking the time to respond.

The VC-S appeared at Munich last year with the promise of a very competetive price. I waited and waited for further information / release date but impatience got the better of me and I bought a Moth Pro (which I am very happy with). In principle, the VC-S operates in the same manner so should produce similar results to the Moth. There are, no doubt areas where cost has dictated compromise but I can see nothing that mkes it anything other than good value for money for its type. Only time will tell!

R.

One has to be careful with a 'wash and rinse'. Maybe it works okay in a soft water area, but I wouldn't risk it here with our very hard water. Microscopic limescale deposits would definitely be left behind.

A wet/suction machine using isopropyl alcohol and deionised water is the only way to guarantee effective cleaning and I'm very happy with my Moth RCM. This type of machine also has the benefit of removing static charge - meaning that my LP12 felt mat rarely adheres to records.

John.

I have searched the internet for reviews but so far found very little apart from a site called Audio Appraisal which I know nothing about. The review pointed out that the rubber sealing ring on the label clamp is prone to come adrift and is fiddly to reinstate. Another comment I found, I think on Steve Hoffmans site complained that the felt pads have a tendency to come unstuck from the vacuum arm. I have emailed Henley Designs for comment but so far no reply.

I have listened to sound clips online of before and after situations where records have been cleaned with Isopropyl Alcohol/Distilled water solutions and I am sure I can hear a slight flattening of dynamics and roll off of high frequencies which seemed to make the music feel less involving. I have heard this effect in the real world when I have experimented with this type of mixture (albet without an automated RCM) and believe that the Isopropyl probably reacts with the vinyl in some way.

When vinyl LP's were manufactured in the days of all analogue recording and playback, I understand that it was usual practice for the recording or lacquer cutting engineer to apply a little lift to the high frequencies to counter for the fact that when a newly pressed record comes off the hot stamper, it cools and the vinyl relaxes, causing the microscopic groove modulation to lose a little high frequency information.

Now I wonder whether Isopropyl alcohol may cause some form of reaction with the vinyl compound, perhaps momentarily softening/melting the vinyl and causing a similar effect to that described above.

I have looked on line for solutions that contain no alcohol and L'Art Du Son is one. The blurb on sites such as Needle Doctor and Origin Live describing/reviewing L'Art Du Son seem to concur with my findings. For example, from Origin Live;

. The alcohol-based fluid sounded clean, but constricted and sort of flat

I am perhaps going a little off subject, as I am mainly interested to know whether the Pro-Ject is a worthwhile purchase, however would be interested in any informed comment on the above.

Richard 2000 posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Hi, I asked the owner of my local vinyl shop a while ago, what's the best vinyl cleaning machine on the market? Answer was don't bother, just use a little fairy liquid and rinse, which could be a problem if you're wanting to clean 1000 albums !!! He's had his shop for over twenty years, and he had not found a machine that is worth the money...but of course it's just one opinion.....

Thanks wenger2015

I wouldn't follow that advice at all, or buy records that had been treated in that way, but thanks for taking the time to respond.

Just use pure or filtered water, unfortunately expensive record cleaning machines are a little bit like snake oil 

Having used a (cheap) Knosti Antistat hand turn setup for a good while, it made sense to upgrade to a machine which removed the washings and didn't let them dry on when I upgraded to a MC cartridge. I bought the Pro-ject VC-S because it was a lot cheaper than many other RCMs. I have used it several times already and am very impressed with the power of the vacuum. The 'Wash it' solution that comes with it is non alcoholic (smells of orange cleaner) and seems to get into the grooves, whereas the isopropanol based cleaner I had been using appeared to sit on top in bubbles. As with all things hifi, you pays your money and takes your choice. So far I consider it a good choice.

My only concern with the VC-S is the lack of a platter. I use the SRM brush to clean my LPs on an Okki Nokki. The SRM is wide with stiff bristles and I wonder how much LPs would deflect away from pressure at the outer edge without the support of a platter. I have a few CCR original pressings on very light-weight, flexible Fantasy vinyl (superb sonics) and have to think they'd require a platter to stand against the brushing.

As for the cleaning solutions, I think you'll find as many opinions on which is best as there are products available. Everyone develops their own routine they think is most effective, so my advice would be to experiment and try several types of solutions.

My trial and error shows that high surface tension solutions are best at suspending and ultimately removing dirt. I want the solution to stay on the surface. The brush forces the solution into the grooves, removing the dirt, and the high surface tension re-suspends that dirt on the surface where it can be retrieved by the vacuum arm. I've tried solutions with surfactants (PHOTO-FLO) and found that the solution, along with the dirt, then sits deeper in the grooves and vacuuming the LP is much less effective; visible moisture is left in the grooves and can be seen under bright light. I found listening to PHOTO-FLO solution cleaned LPs is relatively noisy. A subsequent re-clean with a high surface tension solution resulted in noticeably quieter replay.

I should add that I typically clean my LPs only once with the high surface tension solutions and they seem to be good to go for the future, once placed in proper inner sleeves.

Oldenbroke posted:

Having used a (cheap) Knosti Antistat hand turn setup for a good while, it made sense to upgrade to a machine which removed the washings and didn't let them dry on when I upgraded to a MC cartridge. I bought the Pro-ject VC-S because it was a lot cheaper than many other RCMs. I have used it several times already and am very impressed with the power of the vacuum. The 'Wash it' solution that comes with it is non alcoholic (smells of orange cleaner) and seems to get into the grooves, whereas the isopropanol based cleaner I had been using appeared to sit on top in bubbles. As with all things hifi, you pays your money and takes your choice. So far I consider it a good choice.

Hi Oldenbroke,

The original "Wash it" formula contained Isopropyl alcohol, so initially I thought you were mistaken. I just looked again and It appears that Pro-Ject have changed the fluid to an alcohol free one, the original "Wash it" did contain Isopropyl alcohol although there was an alcohol free solution for 78's, perhaps its just the 78 version repackaged.

joerand posted:

My only concern with the VC-S is the lack of a platter. I use the SRM brush to clean my LPs on an Okki Nokki. The SRM is wide with stiff bristles and I wonder how much LPs would deflect away from pressure at the outer edge without the support of a platter. I have a few CCR original pressings on very light-weight, flexible Fantasy vinyl (superb sonics) and have to think they'd require a platter to stand against the brushing.

As for the cleaning solutions, I think you'll find as many opinions on which is best as there are products available. Everyone develops their own routine they think is most effective, so my advice would be to experiment and try several types of solutions.

My trial and error shows that high surface tension solutions are best at suspending and ultimately removing dirt. I want the solution to stay on the surface. The brush forces the solution into the grooves, removing the dirt, and the high surface tension re-suspends that dirt on the surface where it can be retrieved by the vacuum arm. I've tried solutions with surfactants (PHOTO-FLO) and found that the solution, along with the dirt, then sits deeper in the grooves and vacuuming the LP is much less effective; visible moisture is left in the grooves and can be seen under bright light. I found listening to PHOTO-FLO solution cleaned LPs is relatively noisy. A subsequent re-clean with a high surface tension solution resulted in noticeably quieter replay.

I should add that I typically clean my LPs only once with the high surface tension solutions and they seem to be good to go for the future, once placed in proper inner sleeves.

Hi joerand,

I suppose, if heavier scrubbing is required, this could be carried out off the machine by placing the record on a suitable mat and then place on the machine to vacuum off.
Perhaps something could be placed under the record on the machine to act as a stiffener, another old but clean LP perhaps? assuming there is enough thread length to accommodate the extra thickness.

Mind you, I don't think it should be necessary to apply much pressure.

I find your comments re the type of cleaning solution preferred most interesting.          I have read elsewhere that high surface tension liquids are less effective due to them not consistently covering and penetrating the groove due to its tendency to gather in pools. In this article the writer preferred a solution containing a wetting agent ILFOTOL. PHOTO-FLO is NOT recommended according to this writer due to its chemical properties which may explain the results you found.

I have found that the solution in quantities that LJC recommends works well for me: (Ilfotol, IPA, triple distilled water) applied half measure in a 5ml syringe. I do plan to try L'Art Du Son as a final rinse at some stage to establish whether it changes anything.

R.