Turntable / vinyl

Hi,

That is not a long post so don't worry on that count!!

The resurgence in vinyl is in some ways a funny thing.  As a long term user - 45+ years - with 000s of albums for the most part in excellent condition for me maintaining the medium, and being lucky enough to be able to invest in a high-end TT, it's the logical course. And £ for £ if everything else is equal vinyl will normally give digital a lesson in how to present shall we say the ultimate musical experience. But it would also be remiss of me not to say that as enthusiasts we are prone to overstate the advantages of the black stuff and I fervently believe that there are more important issues - not least the quality of the source recording/production - in ensuring good replay.  Indeed system synergy is far more important.  

The next factor is as you point the variety in the quality of the vinyl available.  Simply some of the modern pressings despite being 180 or even 200 gm are nowhere near as good as the originals were, but some are excellent so there is a bit of a lottery at play here although how often have we been disappointed at the awful mastering that has blighted literally 000s of CDs.  

Then of course the software itself takes a little more care and looking after - a clean record is far far better than one covered in dust and grime to say nothing of preserving stylus life.  Anyone who has a sizeable collection will really benefit from a wet record cleaning machine - something like an Oki Nokki - others are available.

As to the TT itself the dealer you have spoken to is giving you pretty good advice - as a starting point Regas are about as good as it gets - very simple to set up and use.  For the phono stage no you don't have to use a Stageline.  For the money they are about as good as it gets but they are not switchable and therefore you have to match carefully with the cartridge you are going to use.  If you were to use a Rega cartridge, which whilst I love their TTs and once owned one I wouldn't necessarily recommend, I would use a Rega phono stage.  Again others are available.

So if I didn't have any vinyl would I at his moment in time be tempted to try?  Difficult to answer. Why would I if I was satisfied with my digital replay and had an extensive musical collection.  That said on more than one occasion I've duplicated an album I already owned on CD when I've seen the vinyl version available!!!!  And yes vinyl is probably 70% of my listening.

Finally, I've read this about Sainbury's and Tesco exploiting the vinyl resurrection and why not but I'd rather buy from the specialist suppliers out there who have actually kept the medium going.

Good luck.

Regards,

Lindsay   

HI APT

As someone else who predominantly listens to vinyl my views are simialr to Lindsay's - I seriously doubt that I would go down the vinyl route if I was starting out now.

....... but if I did I would go for a Linn Sondek LP12  

Personally, I seem to move in the opposite direction to everyone else. I used to be that weird bloke who still has a record player, and never wanted to make the move to CD. I was happy with just my LP12. Having almost entirely bypassed the CD player era, I'm now moving towards streaming, and prefer to put all my resources into fewer boxes, so the writing is on the wall for my turntable. That's not to say that you, or anyone else, shouldn't start playing LPs just because I've stopped, of course. In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, individual pressings can vary, and if one doesn't sound right, I would take it back and complain. The problem then is that it could be a whole batch that's bad, so a replacement might have the same fault - or the entire production might be poor, as it might be in CD or any other medium. 

2. An RP6 would be a great place to start. So would an LP12, though, and for similar money you'd get a decent used one. That's what I did, and never regretted it. People like to tell you that it's difficult to set up, but with a good dealer to sort that, I've never had problems, and very occasional servicing/cartridge replacement is all I've needed. As with all these things, find the right dealer, and listen for yourself. 

3. A Stageline is good, but not essential; the Rega phono stages are also excellent, and don't need a separate power supply.

Every TT which locks on the PRAT/drive of the song is a good match with Naim. The good and affordable ones with direct drive like Technics SL1200/1210 (not with DJ cartridge!), Denon's etc, are very good and made for ever. 

I myself had bought a TT again after 2 months without one (sold my LP12 and all my records). Bought the el cheapo Audio Technica AT LP-120 USB tt with direct drive, AT 95E mm cart and build in phonoamp.  That thing is bloody good for 280 euro. I still can understand how  such a cheap TT can sound and operate so good. It locks on the prat/drive like a bloodhound. It has flaws but for 280 euro don't care.

The felt rug must be replaced by an original Technics rubber rug for instance, use a good digital gauge and testrecord for set up, and place it on a solid/damping cabinet like Ikea expedit/kallax.  

I 

Hello APT,

It's interesting that you have those three albums as 24 bit high resolution downloads. These have been remastered for the current releases, but it is almost certain that they have been remastered digitally. This is what puts me off buying new releases and re-releases on vinyl - they've either been recorded digitally or remastered from digitised copies of the original analogue tapes. They may sound better in hi-res download than vinyl anyway.

I suspect this is why many people prefer the original vinyl releases. Then, of course, you still face the loudness wars in whichever medium you choose.

All that said, despite RIAA correction, I did notice that Adele's new album (recorded digitally, of course) was at least mixed for vinyl and that sounds very good.

If you get a poor pressing, I would strongly urge you to take it back, but as has been said before, there may be a problem with the whole batch. I have had numerous problems with K-Scope releases lately. Only by us all returning bad pressings will the pressing plants take any notice and try to improve quality. I think poor quality pressings (and the great CD marketing of Sony and Phillips -"Perfect sound forever") is what killed vinyl in the 1980s.

If I were starting out today, no I probably wouldn't bother with a turntable. But with a good pressing a turntable can sound so much more natural and involving than any digital source I've heard. 

Clive

Oh, one other thing: you do have to pay more for vinyl. Many CDS can now be purchased for <£7, whilst the vinyl is often >£15.

A Rega RP6 with cartridge and a phono stage will cost about £1,500, to enable you to play overpriced albums of dubious provenance that you have already. Rumours and Hotel California? Really? For £1,500 you could buy loads of new and interesting music that can be played on your existing superb system. 

I love turntables, and used to own an LP12 with Aro and Armageddon, but had loads of records to play on it. But if I were starting out on vinyl now, well, I wouldn't. 

Also if Sainsburys is the only way to get hold of vinyl in your area, then I wouldn't bother, they will probably discontinue the facility around Christmas time when the shelves will be filled up with Christmas stuff.

where I live there used to be several excellent places to buy vinyl from shop owners who knew the difference between the good stuff and the duff stuff, although now sadly all gone. If I was to take up buying vinyl again I'd have to travel some distance as going through them vis a vis is more important than ordering online imo.

I think you need to realise that the Vinyl is just a medium for the recording. In itself, it's not a 'magic bullet' that will turn the proverbial sows ear into a silk purse. Even in it's prime years, there could be very large differences in sound quality from label to label - though not necessarily disc-to-disc (which you seem to be concerned about). You need to bear in mind the difficulties in successfully transferring the sound from a master tape to disc and the tiny dimensions that the sounds are squeezed down to. Inevitably some cutting engineers were just better at doing this than others (even assuming a well recorded master tape in first place) I think to really hear what Vinyl reproduction is capable of  you would need to pick your reissues very carefully.  I think it's unlikely that the supermarkets will have something worthwhile. A safe bet for quality might be something on the 'Analogue Productions' label - as the name suggests, an all-analogue chain of reproduction and first generation master tape. I think this is as good as it gets - though there are other 'Audiophile' labels too. (no connections to any of them)

APT,

this might have been suggested already (I am the laziest man on Earth and do not read all the posts thoroughly), but why don't you

a) buy one of those albums

b) visit some dealers with good vinyl systems and

c) get some first hand impressions that might help you to decide?

Best

Max

BTW – a friend of mine, who's also a respectable forum member here, is presently without his wonderful CDP and just using his Linn LP12, and he seems very happy with this temporary/parallel solution...

Best again

M 

APT, Just dip your toe in with a Rega RP3/ Elys/ Fono/ IKEA Lack and find out if it's for you with the Sainsbury's records and more. If so, fill your boots.

Best, Chris

Thank you all for your informative responses . Wise words from people with a lot of experience . Summarise to say I should abandon the idea and stick with what I have at present . Max I have actually purchased 2 albums which I have not yet opened - Hotel California and Abbey Road,  I am inclined to return them now. I might still go and have a listen at a dealership.

Chris, have just seen your post.  I will go and try the Rega RP3/ RP6 at the dealer .

Best wishes

APT

Hi APT,

Hifi is, shall we say, an esoteric pursuit. So I can't understand when folks (who have stereos that cost more than a nice car) suggest that getting into vinyl is somehow unreasonable. If you think you might have fun with a new source and a new way to enjoy music, please give it a go! I love vinyl -- digging through crates of old LPs to find a gem, the artwork, the sound, the ritual of putting on an LP and then just listening, rather than hunting around for a particular track. I also like the tweak-y aspect -- this is a hobby, after all.

I like Max's suggestion to bring the LPs you have now to a dealer and listen to a few options. That said, if you want to pull the trigger on a rig, I'd recommend getting a used Rega RP3, P5, or RP6 and Dynavector P75 phono stage, then have your dealer hook you up with a new Dyna 10x5 cartridge. If you find that vinyl isn't for you, you can sell everything on and lose a few hundred quid at worst.

Scratch that itch, man!

--Joe

I couldn't agree more with Joe's post above. Vinyl is fun – try it! You don't need a huge number of LPs to start with. If you buy a couple of albums per week pretty soon you have a decent collection. 

Massimo Bertola posted:

.....a friend of mine, who's also a respectable forum member here......

Is there any other kind?!

Best, C.

APT posted:

Chris, have just seen your post.  I will go and try the Rega RP3/ RP6 at the dealer .

Thank you, that's great. I think the whole thing hinges around how much you value the tangible in an otherwise downloadable, weightless world. Anyway, enjoy the experience of the record player dem.

Best, C.

For anything recorded digitally in the first place, keeping digital until a DAC presents to the amp can readily achieve better sound quality than vinyl (unless destroyed by bad mastering, and of course dependent upon replay equipment used). Meanwhile music recorded in analog originally may have the potential for better sound quality than vinyl, depending on the quality of any master recording available for digitising. Therefore, without the reason of an existing analog record collection, unless your interest is in music recorded in analog it would seem that choosing vinyl ultimately is placing the tactile factor of handling and reading the album cover etc above sound quality. (That's not to say there's anything wrong with that if the balance of pleasure suits.)

for me, having converted to digital, I enjoy the greater SQ available on some music, and though I miss the LP sleeves themselves, I can access them on an iPad if I want to view them (and when I ripped all my  old LPs I photographed any sleeves of interest). The vastly reduced storage requirement is also appreciated domestically...

Hi APT

love my vinyl and my NDX - i had a second hand Reag P3 for a while, and then moved up to SH LP12 - but as mentioned speak to your prefered dealer and go from there

yes some vinyl can be different - but go to good Indpendent Shop (i use RISE in Worcester) as it's close - i always try and get 180grm - purchased some recent albums and they are stunning and with a lot of recent vinyl recordings you get a free download -16 BIT  Bowie with Blackstar, Steve Mason meet the Humans = one of the best recordings by miles is Melt by Peter Gabriel - 180Grm (45 RPM) with free HD 24 download

love NDX and Vinyl for different reasons - best of both worlds - well pretty close

joe9407 posted:

Hi APT,

I love vinyl -- digging through crates of old LPs to find a gem, the artwork, the sound, the ritual of putting on an LP and then just listening, rather than hunting around for a particular track. I also like the tweak-y aspect -- this is a hobby, after all.

 

I agree entirely with what Joes says, however, since I got a 272 (and traded in my CDX2) my gyrodec is gathering dust.

I even had a new cartridge and a service on the turntable to show it some love, but I just keep going back to the 272. Both in terms of convenience and sound quality.

I have always been a big fan of physical media and there is something especially magical about great album art work on the sleeve of an LP - but for me, ultimately it's about how much more toe tapping the music is and streaming from the 272 wins hands down (in my setup).

Although all that said, now it's made me think about vinyl, I'm going to go and put on a MoFi pressing of Marc Cohn's debut album and have a good look at the sleeve 

antony d posted:

Hi APT

...

yes some vinyl can be different - but go to good Indpendent Shop (i use RISE in Worcester) as it's close - i always try and get 180grm - purchased some recent albums and they are stunning and with a lot of recent vinyl recordings you get a free download -16 BIT  Bowie with Blackstar, Steve Mason meet the Humans = one of the best recordings by miles is Melt by Peter Gabriel - 180Grm (45 RPM) with free HD 24 download

love NDX and Vinyl for different reasons - best of both worlds - well pretty close

 

 

Where is RISE, please? I live in Worcester, unless you mean Worcester, MA!

ATB from George

Rise is in Crowngate, also shop in Bristol, not MA 

County for famous Sauce, pears Morgan cars and water from the hills 

Dear Anthony,

Not being a great shopper, I hardly go through Crown Gate!

Thanks for the reply! I’ll go and have a look, to see if they do any classical stuff! CDs only for me though!

Best wishes from George

If you are starting out with vinyl- make sure it is for the right reasons.I have a hunch most of the tt users on this site (Myself included) are long-term tt owners. However,no reason not to start a record collection.Personally,I would still get a good tt- rp6 is a very good recommendation.New record ownership,however is a pricy proposition, and also hit or miss as to what is available,and yes some pressings are better or worse,however,the stores near me often only have 1 or 2 copies of a given album on-hand so exchanging really is not much of an option. Records do offer another option- there are still about 2 gazillion records out there and enough places that practically give them away-definitely hit or miss and a relatively inexpensive way to explore. Gotta love those salvation army stores- just need plenty of patience,and a good eye when examining the records.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Anthony,

Not being a great shopper, I hardly go through Crown Gate!

Thanks for the reply! I’ll go and have a look, to see if they do any classical stuff! CDs only for me though!

Best wishes from George

George,

I've frequently visited RISE in Bristol, but I've never seen any classical recordings in there on any medium. They do have a smattering of jazz, but it's mostly contemporary pop/rock. The vinyl racks seem to be on the increase though.