To stream or not to stream?

First, I'm a big fan of getting the cd's out of the listening room and onto a server!

Your proposed setup sounds fine.  All will be connected by Cat-5 cable?  Get on with it and there is plenty of help here if you need it!

As an added bonus, if you ever want a second system you'll see how easy it is to just add another player to the network.

Your situation is almost identical to mine about 6 months ago - although my wife was slightly nervous about not being able to "just play a CD".

I was nervous about building and maintaining a NAS and network for streaming, but with help from people here and other research, I put together a Qnap NAS, running asset and have not looked back. It has been very reliable - outside of an annoying clash with the current Netflix iOS app (see other threads about that!!). 

I considered keeping my CDX2 for a while to make sure I was making the right decision but I had the opportunity to trade in my CDX2, Supernait 1 and Hicap for a 272 & 250DR. I can honestly say it is the best thing I have done in my hifi journey.

I listened to much more of my (now ripped CD) library - often rediscovering things I'd forgotten. I am also very much enjoying Hi Res music which I have purchased from the many sites available. 

Obviously opinion is divided as to favoured means to play music - vinyl / CD / streaming - but my two penny's worth is go for it. Focus on streaming being your source and as and when the upgrade itch happens (if it does) anything you do will be to the benefit of all the music you play.

I loved my supernait and I know the SN2 is an improvement on that. In terms of source, I've not heard the ND5 XS - I had the (kind of) equivalent level of CD player on my SN1 (CD5 X) to begin with and it had a lovely natural sound. However, I did trade it in for the beefier, tighter sounding CDX 2 shortly afterwards.

I would have a listen to an ND5 XS and an NDX on the Supernait - see what you think and how the difference sits with the price uplift. 

If you are starting completely fresh - it may also be worth looking at the 172 or 272 options with a power amp. I felt the 272 with 250 was a big leap from the supernait (1) with CDX 2.

all looks fine. Streaming is for most very straightforward and trouble free - it tends to be the horror stories you see on the forum, not the dull boring its working perfect well here.

My observations of sources of frustration which can be avoided

a)  not using wired ethernet connections such as ethernet over power line or wifi 

b) using some switch ports on some older ISP routers - if in doubt use a switch in between - this appears to be what you are doing

c) using DLNA media server on the NAS. Although this seems to work well for many - there appears increasing number of issues. If you are going to use a media server on the NAS try and use one with a good following on your particular NAS like Asset or MinimServer - so their forums are your friend if you have an issue

d) Metadata and file type. Really best keep it simple - use FLAC files - agree your meta data schema before you start ripping your collection for consistency, and let your media server transcode to WAV-PCM for your streamer if you think it sounds better that way.

Simon's response is a great example of how knowledgable people have been so helpful with this and helped avoid pitfalls and problems - along with getting the best results from the set up you go for.

Thank you Simon (and others) for being so helpful with these questions.

I love my CDX2 and have no plans of changing it. For me, I like to keep things simple and the only I would change my cdp for would be an HDX (SSD) . Things may change as I get older and maybe I have more time. At the moment I just about have enough time to listen to an album from start to finish. Maybe Naim will bring out a nice new toy to tempt me at some point! 

Re your list of parts & comments from Simon  ..............  

NAS: Synology DS216+ (plus 2 WD Red 2TB drives) using DSM6 (not MinimServer)     .................   plus Simons comment ........... (c) using DLNA media server on the NAS  .........  use a media server on the NAS try and use one with a good following on your particular NAS like Asset or MinimServer

Synology's included system software DSM-6 has dropped Minimserver as an included bundle package;  it can still be installed but it's a little extra work.    Asset is not supported by Synology & neither is it supported by Asset (Illuminate) when installed in a Synology.   The standard Synology pre-installed DLNA/UPnP package is "Media Server",  it's very easy to use & is fully integrated into the operating system.  It is (IME) absolutely rock solid.  

However .............  (d) Metadata and file type. Really best keep it simple - use FLAC files - agree your meta data schema before you start ripping your collection for consistency, and let your media server transcode to WAV-PCM for your streamer if you think it sounds better that way.    

  Whilst Synology Media Server plays FLAC & all the other non-WAV codec's perfectly well,  it does not transcode gapless albums; it does play WAV & DSD gapless perfectly well I hasten to add.      You will either have to install Minimserver which does transcode well,  or select to use WAV.                 I have only WAV (& DSD) albums & frankly it really is as easy as any other codec - thinking editing metadata - the only downside is that it does not compress like FLAC (& others)  so file size is larger.    But 2TB HDD will hold >3000 16/44 WAV size albums,  obviously less as the quantity of HD (24-bit) grows.   

The responses are very encouraging for me. I genuinely think if I can get this set up effectively then I won't look back. Because of the number of CDs that I have, some of them are becoming increasingly inaccessible.  

In answer to Simon-in-Suffolk

- I am using wired Ethernet

- I was planning on using DSM6 for the server software as I think that I read that someone on this sight was facing some difficulty with MinimimServer and his Synology

- I am going to use my existing BTHomehub 5 as my router

- I hope my metadata is fine: album artist/album.

Suspect I will take the plunge this weekend and buy the NAS, hard discs and switch. If everything goes ok, will then proceed with Naim streamer.

At one point, I thought that this would be beyond me unless I was a network engineer.

i would also add that I have been following the Naim forums for some time to develop my understanding of the technology and have ben seriously impressed with the quality of support from forum members.

take the plunge... now rip thirty or so of your fave CDs with meta data (genres, artist, composer, album artist etc) Live with this for a couple of weeks - if all works well and you can find and navigate your test selection well then go for it.

As far as Media Server i keep it well away from the NAS and have been totally trouble free for several years now - I use a RPi - but yes unless you have dabbled with one before there will be a learning curve and if that is so  I would say stick with the media server loaded on the NAS instead..

Finally this really has very little to do with real networking and most network engineers will have to undertake a similar learning curve in setting up streaming...if they are into music... but its not too taxing.

Whilst Synology Media Server plays FLAC & all the other non-WAV codec's perfectly well, it does not transcode gapless albums; it does play WAV & DSD gapless perfectly well I hasten to add. You will either have to install Minimserver which does transcode well, or select to use WAV. I have only WAV (& DSD) albums & frankly it really is as easy as any other codec - thinking editing metadata - the only downside is that it does not compress like FLAC (& others) so file size is larger. But 2TB HDD will hold >3000 16/44 WAV size albums, obviously less as the quantity of HD (24-bit) grows.

Mike-B, as I have already burned 100% of my library to FLAC, and I have gapless albums, then I guess I will have to install Minimserver rather than DSM6.  You mention that it's a little extra work - does that mean complex or is it fairly intuitive?

Nyron59    RE  I was planning on using DSM6 for the server software as I think that I read that someone on this sight was facing some difficulty with MinimimServer and his Synology  .................  Those problems have been sorted     ............   DSM-6 is the Synology system management (Disk Station Manager) its fully integrated with all the various other functions & packages such as security, finance, office etc.     It includes the music UPnP music server software Media Server.   But Minimserver is still an OK 3rd party add on.        

- I am going to use my existing BTHomehub 5 as my router  ................  same as me,  but I do use mine with a switch (hint hint) 

I purchased an NDX last year to go with y Olive set up best thing I ever done in fact I have bought more CDs and ripped them to my NAS since buying the NDX than the prevoius couple of years.

The ease of use with either an android phone or tablet is superb plus you have endless radio stations to choose from.

This forum is also very helpful in problem solving the knowledge of some of these people amazes me..

nyron59 posted:

Mike-B, as I have already burned 100% of my library to FLAC, and I have gapless albums, then I guess I will have to install Minimserver rather than DSM6.  You mention that it's a little extra work - does that mean complex or is it fairly intuitive?

I've only used Minimserver when it was a pre-installed package.    DSM-6 is all new & has only been out 2 weeks or so & I have not tried to install Minimserver it it myself,  but others have & have not reported any difficulties with the install process as such.

I took the plunge with the Synology DS213J and quickly found that FLAC did not deliver Gapless but with the posts here have found Minim Server straightforward to set up. I updated to DSM 6 and installed Java 8 and latest MinimServer release - both forums were extremely helpful and now have on-the-fly transcoding so I would definitely take the plunge. I have the 172 in the lounge and UQ2 in my shed/man-cave. I am just waiting for the NAP 200DR and Focal 906s to get delivered to make for happiness in every room. 

Plenty of good advice above, but unless you intend to buy on the second hand market, a dealer will be invaluable in setting up your new purchases for you, including the network side of things. Naim support are also very good at this stuff, so you shouldn't have to worry about it.

Regarding your choice of amp and streamer, there are a lot of options at around the price of an ND5XS/Supernait. The traditional approach with Naim gear would suggest that you are underinvesting in the source here - compared to NDX/Supernait, which is a classic, tried and tested 2-box setup. Then there's the 172 or 272 with separate power amp. Your choice will obviously depend on what speakers you have, too. Find a dealer you like, and they'll be happy to let you listen to some different setups and decide for yourself.    

Streaming is nowhere near as complicated or difficult as it is sometimes made out to be providing you don't attempt to cut corners.  If you have a wired network already it's not difficult to add a streamer and there is lots of advice on how to do that freely available on this forum and elsewhere on the Internet which is well worth a read and which will save you from making mistakes on the way.  Start off small with a few CDs ripped and test that you are happy with the metadata and that they stream over your network and then have fun ripping the rest - ripping doesn't have to be the chore it's made out to be and you'll be surprised what gems you rediscover doing it.  Have fun. 

CHRISSU is spot on regarding involving a good dealer I have a demo of a 282/252,Supercap and 250dr plus adding a XPS dr power supply to the NDX I have this is booked for Wednesday.

Should I proceed the dealer has offered to to check and change my NAS/PC settings to suit during the installation of any new equipment purchased in fact they have been extremely helpful and informative during conversations whilst arranging the demo.

Streaming, at least from a locally held music file store, can give the best available sound quality, with convenience and almost zero space requirement for music storage.

Answer to the first OP question, for me definitely worth it, but I wish I had learnt more before embarking as a) it would have avoided the hassle of resolving metadata problems if I had been more aware, and b) I could have saved money and got to my present system quicker.

As for question 2, as 1a) above!

Rather than repeat a long assessment I posted recently, and noting the original consideration of ND5XS, I commend the following thread in particular if you haven't already viewed in detail, one of my posts
What (in lay terms) does a streamer do? https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...18#55771800625251118
Advice needed on switch from Naim to Linn (last few days' posts) https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...70#55771800704301470

It's good at its price point but to my ears the ND5 XS is nothing outstanding.  I think you might successfully cast a wider net at that price level although I have not heard any of the competition. If you can run to the NDX you'll be in a much stronger place to justify streaming. It is (again, to my ears) the pick of the Naim streamer range for value for money. Don't be put off going second hand though a dealer.

As to streaming as the primary source? For us it came down to sound quality. If I preferred the musical enjoyment offered by CD playback I would play CDs. I think streaming sounds better at comparative price points. So I stream.

At the end of the day it's your ears that need to be convinced.

nyron59 posted:

Mike-B, as I have already burned 100% of my library to FLAC, and I have gapless albums, then I guess I will have to install Minimserver rather than DSM6.  You mention that it's a little extra work - does that mean complex or is it fairly intuitive?

Hi Nyron,

As you have DBPoweramp you already have their format converter, and it works fine in bulk mode.  As an alternative to MinimServer, you can use the DBPoweramp MusicConverter to convert your FLAC files to WAVE files - it'll convert both the music and metadata perfectly without loss; the only disadvantage is the bigger files (typically about 1.8 times the size).  I know this because I've done just that.

Thread Drift Warning  

Hi Huge,  have you used DSP effect RG (or RG Apply) to reset volume levels ??   I have RG loaded as a permanent DSP these days,  but I have ripped a few in the early days that did not have RG & have low volume levels as a result.   So rather than try to remember which ones they are, your post prompted an idle thought that maybe a block convert .wav to .wav with DSP RG - (or maybe RG Apply) - might be a one hit fix.  

Mike-B posted:

Thread Drift Warning  

Hi Huge,  have you used DSP effect RG (or RG Apply) to reset volume levels ??   I have RG loaded as a permanent DSP these days,  but I have ripped a few in the early days that did not have RG & have low volume levels as a result.   So rather than try to remember which ones they are, your post prompted an idle thought that maybe a block convert .wav to .wav with DSP RG - (or maybe RG Apply) - might be a one hit fix.  

Hi Mike,  No!

I certainly wouldn't use RG Apply as that alters the data in the file (RG just adds a single metadatum entry).

I had read somewhere that the Naim streamers ignore <Replay Gain\> tags; do they now honour this request?
If so is there any detrimental effect on SQ?

Other than these possible caveats, yes setting RG using the dBpoweramp Batch Converter seems like a good option.

Nyron,

There are some real experts on the forum as noted from above quality advice, but from my practical experience having ripped 10,000+ CDs  (which I quite enjoyed tagging them the way I wanted to see them filed and re-discovering some old gems like the wonderful Michelle Shocked 'Short, Sharp, Shocked'), as an aside two pieces of advice:-

1) Don't lose sight (or sound) of the music - enjoy it. A large part of streaming is data and file management.

2) BACK UP - If you're only running 2Tb then I would buy to be doubly safe 2 x 2TB  external back-up drives from different manufacturers (say Seagate or WD), backing up regularly.

I've just upgraded from the ND5XS to the NDS and WOW it was exponential or is logarithmic anyway night and day, All those things you hear when people describe esoteric hi-fi and think yer OK great imagination, but now I get it. If you're demo-ing have a listen to the NDS just for fun - you only live once and interest rates are low!

Andy

Huge posted:

I certainly wouldn't use RG Apply as that alters the data in the file (RG just adds a single metadatum entry).

I had read somewhere that the Naim streamers ignore <Replay Gain\> tags; do they now honour this request?
If so is there any detrimental effect on SQ?

Huge,  I need to get some more research & testing done.   Since my post & a bit of reading,  yes I agree about not using "RG Apply".    I think it might be the DLNA/UPnP server that reads (or not) the RG tags, not the Naim streamer (or any other renderer as far as I can tell).    I don't believe there is an SQ change.      Once I've done the book larnin' stuff  I will find one of the low volume level rips & run some tests. But I don't think I will be batch converting,  if nothing else to not risk converting my DSD's to WAV.        

Mike, using the batch converter, you can specify an input filter which restricts the types of file it performs the conversions on.

nyron59 posted:

 

So my key questions are:

1. Is streaming worth the emotional investment and can I be confident that I will get a system set-up and maintained without too much blood, sweat and tears and
2. Do you have any comments on what I am proposing to buy?

Hi nyron -

Lots of good advice already...so here's another "jump in, the water's fine" post of encouragement. Like many others, I've really enjoyed re-discovering things from my collection  (Michelle Shocked! Saw her in 1987 I think...) and shuffling songs and, lately, using online services like Spotify and Tidal. Emotional payback is huge.

Since you have your CDs ripped to FLAC already, you can be up and running in a jiffy if you buy the NAS. Lots of good votes for Synology; I think you're making a fine pick with the 216+, which has an Intel Celeron and 1 GB memory...the price premium for the "+" units is very worthwhile in my experience (I have the 213+, PowerPC architecture; am about to pull trigger on the 716+ to replace two older/nastier iOmega boxes) as they offer better overall performance both in "network disk" speeds (read/write during your initial uploading from your library, for example, as well as backing up any computers on your home network) and "home server" functionality (won't break a sweat serving music or transcoding video, acting as a backup server, plus whatever else you want to play with). WD Red are also a fine choice (I use these as do many others) so you are merely left with "to raid or not to raid", which should consider your total space requirements, backup strategy, etc. That's something you can act on after you get started, especially if you begin with only one drive in the bay...really, you can learn as you go and few choices at setup are irreversible. 

Once you set up the NAS you can copy over your FLAC library, point the Media Server at the music directory, and begin. You can install other streaming software later (Minim, Plex, etc., but not Asset afaik) and point to your same library to check out different functionality, features, performance. You can look at your metadata and edit things that bug you (eg genre tags automatically assigned migh have "Rock" for some and "Rock & Roll" for others...but you're able to say "it's all Rock and Roll to me" and work your way through the re-tagging). This is good to do as you rip new titles, but also possible for your existing set. 

The simple switch is a no brainer, it works great and is readily available.

I have the original UnitiQute and SuperUniti, and can't comment on your streamer / amp choice...but listening will tell you and virtually nobody dislikes any of the Naim gear (although many prefer the higher spec units and can't "go back" once bitten!). I'm interested to hear the new 272, but doubt I will stretch to that and so have avoided temptation thus far haha.

Best wishes. It's easy and fun and there is plenty of help and advice here if something unusual goes sideways. 

Regards alan