Naim Nait 5i / Rega RS1 - speaker upgrade: analysis paralysis

James

You have two things working  in your favor.  First,  you've done a good analysis of what you wish to change in your present system, which is a nice one by the way. Second, you've come up with a great list of speakers to get you where you want to be. You really have to listen, there's no substitute. I'm most familiar with the Spendor and PMC and like them both but I think you'll find all your choices will have advocates.

I'm a fan of Spendor as  well, I'd definitely give them a listen.

Thanks guys, 

How would you say the PMCs and the Spendors compare tonally? I keep reading that Spendors tend towards the warmer, more relaxed while the PMCs are perhaps a bit snappier but drier ?  Perhaps this is an over-generalisation. 

Having had speakers that I felt were a bit lean and bright, I'm inclined to tilt towards something warmer and more full bodied.  Is there a risk that the Spendors can be boomy or the bass overpower the room?

You're totally right about getting out there and having a listen.  Since I'm looking at the used market, some of the models i'm looking at aren't available in stores but I can probably listen to current options and get an idea of the 'house' sound for each company, if such a thing exists. 

I really like the GB1i, having owned a pair for a year or so, driven by a SuperUniti. A friend of mine also has them, driven by a Nait 5i. Though the system is OK, I find it gutless and lacking in dynamism: I'd say that a 200 Poweramp is what they need, or a Supernait. The Rega speakers are very efficient, and will work better with smaller amps. 

You also want to look at positioning options - if you want a room filling sound, rather than something small and weedy sounding, you need to get your speakers at least 2m apart, especially in a room 5m by 5m. The older Spendors do tend to give a slightly laid back sound, and like the PMCs, need more power than the Nait can provide. 

The thing is, your existing system is nicely balanced, and if you are thinking of moving to bigger and better speakers, you are very likely looking at a better amp too. Perhaps it's worth trying some other standmount speakers, such as the Focal Arias, which are very easy to drive and give a big bouncy sound. 

I'll defer to Hungary's expertise on the PMC GB1i as I'm familiar with the Twenty series but the house sound is nice. The Nait 5i will definitely work with the A5 level Spendors but I do recall the S6's and others being a little power hungary. Spendors can sound a bit laid back, at least intially, but they do listen well over the long term. Also consider the newer Rega series speakers as they seem to be impressing folks. And finally, I really think a lot of the Nait 5i so absent big spending I'd keep that and make sure I got a speaker that would work with it.

Have fun

Thanks Clay and Hungry Halibut. - Great points! I'll look out the GB1i and A5s. 

Ack yes the spacing is not ideal.  I wish I was more into speakers when I originally bought all my furniture lol. 

I'm going from one extreme to the other since the Rega RS1s are wall mounted to the sides of the windows - so about 4m apart, while the new arrangement will be only 1m apart.

I'm definitely open to amp upgrades, but it will probably be done in stages and I thought I may be near the limit of how far I can take the RS1s, so speakers seemed like the first thing to change.   Certainly not averse to stand mounts too -if they have room to grow with my system too.  I do enjoy the speed and snappiness of the regas, it would be a shame to loose too much of that. 

I'm going to contradict Clay here - I tried the A5 with a 122/150 and they were a disaster, and I'd expect the Nait to be even worse. They are very power hungry and have a slow and sloppy bass. In fact, I think they are appalling speakers.

Hungary, contradictions are okay with me. I was basing my comment on the assumption that the Spendor A5 was a later version of the beloved Spendor S5e. Apparently,  that's not fully the case, certainly in terms of efficiency, and given your experience, sound as well.

Indeed.  Good to get a range of opinions. 

I'm also open to simply putting much better speakers on the wall-mounts, but since it's quite a compromised position I don't know how good an idea that is.  The RS1s were one of the few speakers I found that were advertised as working well on the wall. 

I have a pair of Neat Motive SE2's which I can recommend.  They have a very refined treble and midrange but tend to be a bit one dimensional with the bass.  It may be where I have them positioned (I have little choice in this) or it may be a function of thier size.  I understand that the SE2 is similar to the newer SX2 but both are somewhat better than the basic motive 2.

I'm a big fan of the Neats you mention in your list and feel these will likely be the ideal next step given your budget and current set up. The great thing about them is that they will certainly not be redundant should you upgrade to a Supernait in the future.  They are a fast and detailed sounding speaker with ample bottom end (that will be even better as and when you decide to upgrade the amp!)

Of course, listen to a few and try to arrange a home demo of the top 2 to make sure they work in your space. Good luck!

With a Nait XS, I went from RS1's to Spendor S3/5R-2's (both on stands) & they are in a different league. A really lovely little pair of speakers imho. I agree with your comments on the RS1's they just didn't scale that well...

Good luck in your search

Wow lots to think about and consider.  I really appreciate all your thoughts on this- Thank you! Some of this will depend on what comes up at the right price.  Plus, if I buy on the used market I can probably minimise losses reselling if it doesn't work out.  SX2s are around £1000 ex display, probably less for a used pair.

should I be considering any of Naim's own speakers or is that a different kettle of fish altogether?

I, too, ran a pair of Spendor A5 and found them to be simply dreadful. I replaced them with Kudos X2s and have been very impressed with them. To be fair, my dealer says that more recent Spendors are a big improvement on the older A5 etc, so maybe still worth considering.

Your rack has a lot of stuff on it, including what looks like a few non-hifi items - and a loudspeaker!? Separating off your hifi kit on a dedicated rack might well improve things.

What source are you feeding the Rega Dac?

Have you tried the RS 1's on stands? 

I have the RS1 Nait 5i2 combo myself and the RS1's pushed together, right against the wall produce strident, scratchy mid range vocal that's almost like nails on a chalk board.

On stands wider apart and a bit away from the back wall makes a huge difference.

Hi Michael, 

The digital source is an iMac with 16/44 CD rips into a usb/spdf converter into the Rega DAC.

No I haven't tried the RS1s on stands.  I am sure you are right that they can sound much better with more optimal positioning, but I'm not sure I can really achieve that with my layout and might just be ready for something different altogether.

I mentioned some of the things I don't like about the RS1s but there are lots of positives about them and they've served me we'll, for sure. 

Spendor A5 are definitely not what you want.  The A5r on the other hand is a completely different speaker and may suit your room and tastes, but small stand-mounts are likely to be better in you room: see my last point for the reason for this.

The excessively "laid back" image of all Spendor's isn't actually correct, it's mostly a hang over from the early BCx series, or an example of using inappropriate amplification.  Compared to other speaker it more reflects their timbral neutrality as opposed to hyping things up.  They (mostly - but not the old A5!) have a very neutral, clean midrange; however they also a very slight HF roll-off that isn't perfectly accurate, but at least it avoids harshness and listening fatigue.

PMCs are a somewhat more 'modern hi-fi' sounding speaker, with a brighter less damped HF than Spendors.  They often have a bit less mid range clarity but are still very much worth listening to.

And that's the salient point: you NEED to listen to the different speakers to see what type of presentation YOU like.

However there is another point:

With a square plan room of 5m each side, you need to avoid a speaker that has significant bass output at 34Hz, otherwise you'll get massive boom or one note bass.  This can be cured using smaller main speakers and connecting the sub you have using a DSP controlled filter (e.g. a DSP 2x4 or Antimode II) to put a notch filter in the response.  Pressure mode bass traps in the corners will also help a lot.  I speak from experience as I have a 3.75m x 4.25m room and that's how I cured severe bass issues (> +24dB at 39Hz - 48Hz).

I had a good few years with the A5's but they need a much better amp.  I used mine with a 282/HicapDR/200 and I found them rather decent.  In the wrong room though then can be a disaster as HH found out to his cost.

I would absolutely avoid them with your system, I tried them with a lesser amp and they were slow, and very loose sounding.  The top end also seemed to tail off which wasn't a problem with the better amp.

I would be cautious even with the new model.  They are a 2 1/2 way and sealed so may need a bit of welly to get them going.

Take care and try to listen with your system, ideally at home.  Get this wrong and you will end up in an upgrade spiral.

Richard

Brilliant responses - thank you!

@Huge - Yes, bass has definitely been a problem in my room - just getting the sub integrated with the RS1s.  I've found that I have to have it pulled a way into the room (as in the picture in my first post) and set the crossover at between 100 to 120.  I've never been able to find any specs for how low the RS1s actually go but after using the sub it seems they struggle quite a bit with bass (in my position/room).  It's also quite possible I'm over-compensating for the slightly lean presentation of the speakers by over-doing it with the sub.

 I've always had in my mind that going to the next level would involve some kind of smallish floor stander but what you guys say about stand mounters makes a lot of sense. 

You're also right, I do need to listen for myself.  It's only slightly tricky because I feel like I always go into Audio-T or Sevenoaks and listen/ask questions but invariably end up buying 2nd hand instead - I feel bad about this. 

Can you guys throw out some suggestions for any stand-mounts I should look into (up to £1500 new or used) that will be a significant upgrade over the RS1s,  give me a slightly more full bodied, yet resolving, presentation without being sloppy...and give me the potential to grow with me as I upgrade other components ?

In terms of floor standers -on eBay right now there's neat motive sx-2 £1000 and even some neat elite sx for £1200. 

Jeb-Jeb posted:

should I be considering any of Naim's own speakers or is that a different kettle of fish altogether?

Jeb-Jeb,

You've got a great list together.  A couple thoughts, as I've run a very similar setup in two flats - Mac feeding Rega DAC via S/PDIF, into a Nait 5si into...

a) Previously, Neat Motive 3s (standmounts, older generation).  I loved them, found them immensely entertaining, the system felt beautifully balanced.  While your mileage may vary, I felt the Motives worked well with a source and amp like yours, in an, oh 4m x 3.5m room. I like the SX2 form factor a lot for such use cases, and am curious what the bass would sound like. 

b) Until I came across a pair of s/h Naim Allaes that I couldn't pass up.  In short, if you come across a nice pair at a good price, they work a treat with a 5si (and presumably a 5i-2), and I've forgotten the Neats.  These are the downrange sibling of the SL2s and the older, magnificent SBLs. But, I make the suggestion because they might represent a good value option, because they are a bit less finicky and a little more plug n' play than the SBLs by most accounts, and finally because their quirky 2-box porting system has proven very flexible for me in apartments that impose their own positioning constraints.  They've worked decently against hard walls with no bass boom, though I find them amazing when placed in space.  In both cases, great bass, but (tap wood) no neighbor complaints.  It strikes me that your room might welcome a flexible speaker as well.

Happy hunting and good luck!

Best,

Mark

I would also like to recommend Dynaudio Emit series, or if your budget can stretch to the Excite series, just heard some new Dynaudio speakers at the Axpona show this past weekend, easily the best sound at the show to these ears, also, I would audition the new Elac line of speakers, I couldn't believe the sound of these speakers, they embarrassed some very lofty priced speakers.

The new Spendors I heard at the show definitely could not be described as warm, laid back, and fuzzy, quite the contrary, they sounded fast and extended, very excellent sounding speaker.

I listened to pretty much all the speakers mentioned, Neat, Spendor, ATC, and I know it's a personal thing, but the Dyns just killed at this event.

As an aside, A Naim dealer was playing the Statement amps with Dynaudio Evidence speakers, I guess they could use whatever they wanted, but there has to be a reason they chose to use Dynaudio speakers.

Hi Jeb-Jeb,

Unfortunately,in that room, it's not really going to be possible to eliminate the 34Hz peak in the response and get really good consistent bass*, without doing one of two things:
1  getting creative and making a custom attenuating cable to connect your sub to the speakers
2  upgrading the amp to a Nait XS (which has preamp-out sub connections)
then using a DSP filter to control the sub's in room response.

This means that ideally you'll need to audition speakers in your own room to see how well you feel they integrate acoustically.  Unfortunately no one can really predict this accurately, as no-one else knows what compromises you'll accept in the bass integration.

*  Bass traps will help to reduce the problem, but won't eliminate it.

Okay thanks again guys - lots of food for thought with those recommendations and I really appreciate all your opinions - it's helped me better understand what's out there as well as what my goals should be.  

An amp upgrade can also be in the near future as long as the nait 5i will allow me decent listening in the meantime.  There are so many great looking stand-mount options out there.  I'm wondering if I can accommodate some of the larger monitor options that are out there

Anyway, don't want to drag this out too much! - i'll get out there and do some research and listening and I'll update when I'm set up.

Cheers!

If looking at standmounts in the £1500 region,you need to put the pmc twenty 21's on the audition list,fast,tight and punchy and will take just about any upgrade you care to throw at them.not fantastic in the low regions due to there physical size,but you already have a sub....the mids and treble is sweet on these baby monitors and I'm sure they won't be too bad if you had to wall mount them.They definitely need to be more than a metre apart to get the soundstage benefits although that goes for any speaker.

Ps,I've got my 21's on the end of the nait xs and they sound lovely in a room around the same size as your own,15cm's from the wall,they were very lean sounding in front of a window which was probably akin to having them in free space but in front of a wall... the sound and bass weight transformed them into an altogether different speaker.