Streaming: So I took the plunge! First challenge, however..

Hi again Nyron59 ........... Audio Station is for accessing the NAS & play music from things like your PC,  however you will not be using this to play from your streamer, you do this with Media Server.     Do you have a streamer yet ?? or do you just want to play the files on your PC

1:  Do you see the files you think you've uploaded in File Station ???  this is important as we need to determine that you have set up a good connection. 

2:  What packages have you installed - look in your Package Center->-Installed.  

Yes its possible to set up a path straight to the NAS,  its good to do that with ripped CD's especially if you have a lot to rip,  this is done in dBpoweramp.     I advise new downloads come to PC first as they will probably need checking & also might need to be unzipped.  Then a manual upload (drag & drop) to NAS.   

Mike-B posted:

I advise new downloads come to PC first as they will probably need checking & also might need to be unzipped.  Then a manual upload (drag & drop) to NAS.   

+1  Downloads often are not tagged (metadata) exactly as one might want, and it's a lot easier to fix that on your computer and THEN transfer the files to the nas.  Otherwise, the nas starts to index the files before / while you are editing them.  Get 'em all set and THEN transfer to the nas.  Good luck and enjoy!

Mike-B posted:

Hi again Nyron59 ........... Audio Station is for accessing the NAS & play music from things like your PC,  however you will not be using this to play from your streamer, you do this with Media Server.     Do you have a streamer yet ?? or do you just want to play the files on your PC

1:  Do you see the files you think you've uploaded in File Station ???  this is important as we need to determine that you have set up a good connection. 

2:  What packages have you installed - look in your Package Center->-Installed.  

Yes its possible to set up a path straight to the NAS,  its good to do that with ripped CD's especially if you have a lot to rip,  this is done in dBpoweramp.     I advise new downloads come to PC first as they will probably need checking & also might need to be unzipped.  Then a manual upload (drag & drop) to NAS.   

I do indeed see the files in File Station.  I simply did a very small batch of one artist, and half a dozen albums.  Basically, I copied them from Windows Explorer into File Station.

it's not crucial that I see the files in Audio Station as I won't be playing them on my PC.  I currently use Foobar for that.  However, I would have thought that I should have seen them.

Regarding Package Centre - I guess the key one is MediaServer? It is my intention to install Java 8/MinimServer, although I'm not sure where I save MinimimServer to?

Happy to do a manual upload for new files ripped via dBpoweramp.

I should have added that I do not yet have a streamer. I wanted to ensure that everything was set up on the NAS before proceeding to that stage.

OK,  the important thing is you can see the files in File Station.  You can map the path in dBpoweramp from PC direct to NAS.  Map the path through Windows Explorer Network to \\NAS\music\ ......... dBpoweramp has all the instruction.

I loaded 3 or 400 CD's before my NDX arrived.  Just take your time to get the tagging set right,  but if its wrong its easy enough to delete & do it again.

You can use Media Server & install Minimserver & Java as well,  my problem is I've never installed Minimserver as is required with DSM-6,  when I used Minimserver it was a Synology installed package.  

How long does it take to copy across an average CD flac file to your NAS? It's taking me around 3 minutes per CD, so it's going to take a few days to copy across my library.

3 minutes is OK,  when I first set about ripping the whole collection it took about that long when I used the laptop drive;  but sod this for a game of solders & I dug out an old desktop drive & found it was capable of up to x64 if the disc was clean enough to be read that fast & that changed the time to less than 2 minutes.   I ripped most CD's in basic rip & as long as I got an AccurateRip I was happy.  I later went to Secure Rip & that took longer - I now have it set up that way as default.   But yes you are in for a few days,  mine took some time over 2 weekends & odd hours during the week in between - & I'm retired & have no time pressure other than 'erself ...........  have fun

Mike B, just so that I'm clear. My library is 100% ripped to flac but it's taking around 3 minutes per ripped CD to copy across from my PC into the NAS ie copying across is taking the same time as ripping. Didn't think it would take me that long hence I wondered if I was bringing it across the correct way. So it's going to take a few days to load what I've already ripped?

Ahh sorry didn't understand that.   But its not instant & time is a factor, It will depend on your router & PC capabilities & network connection method,  What is the speed indicator showing ??  is this over wireless or ethernet. ???  

I get 10mb/s maybe a bit more with ethernet   & its variable 4 to 8mb/s over wireless.  So the math is easy,  CD size (est) = 600mb so @ 10mb/s = 60 seconds per CD rip.     I use Windows Explorer (or whatever its called in Win-10 these days)   I see the NAS as a network item & open that so I see the subfolders "Music" "Photo" "Video".  I open the Music folder to see the Artist tree - then from my ripped music store  drag&drop into the Music sub folder or the relevant artist.  This "copies" the album to the NAS 

Nyron59, I can't understand why you are ripping to a seperate file and then copying to the NAS. Rippers like dbpoweramp use local caches whilst ripping and then are designed to write to the NAS/media atore once the track is complete.. This happens whilst the next track is being ripped.. In fact dbpoweramp lets you structure the NAS write file directory structure based on metadata should you wish... I use albumartist/albumname/

This saves a huge a mount of time and has been trouble free working like this for the last 5 years or so and 20,828 tracks later.

Simon

Mike B, using OOKLA my speed (download) is almost 15 Mbps (megabits per second) which, if I understand correctly, converts to 1.875 Megabytes per second. My flac rips are an average about 300 MB each (am using DBpoweramp, level 5 so more compression) which means that it should take just under 3 minutes per CD to transfer across. If I should be looking at upload speeds then the speed drops to around 1Mbps so it would take 15 x longer to transfer across a ripped CD. If I assume that 3 minutes is right, it will take me around 35 hours to transfer across my library from my PC to NAS.

Previously, you indicated that you loaded 3-400 CDs before your NDX arrived. How long did that take approx?

Are there any data integrity issues instructing a large transfer or should I break it down into smaller chunks?

Simon-in-Suffolk, fortunately I have already ripped everything to flac over the last 3 years to use in my study on a very simple PC/DAC/active speakers set-up. From now on, I can point dBpoweramp direct to the NAS drive and save the copying. I think and I hope that my metadata is correct as I follow the same conventions as you.

As you know, I am new to all of this so i may well be failing to understand your comments. But as always, your advice is very gratefully received.

Ssadly, the working week limits my progress but I'm looking forward to sorting this out at weekends.

BTW, I'm transferring everything wirelessly so using wired ethernet would be much better.

nyron59 posted:

Mike B, using OOKLA my speed (download) is almost 15 Mbps (megabits per second) which, if I understand correctly, converts to 1.875 Megabytes per second. 

Previously, you indicated that you loaded 3-400 CDs before your NDX arrived. How long did that take approx?

Are there any data integrity issues instructing a large transfer or should I break it down into smaller chunks?

Internet speed has nothing to do with your router to PC wireless speed.   This depends on each of router & PC wireless interface type(s)  802.11b/g/n & others, & these will give (theoretical) 54, 144 or 300mb/s,  but these speeds are rarely (if ever) achieved.  You will get a faster transfer with a wired ethernet link,  but again it depends on your PC abilities.  My Synology NAS has a 1000Base-T port (1000mb/s) but my laptop will not transfer data over ethernet much faster than 11mb/s.

When I loaded my DS214 I did this from laptop/desktop DVD drive direct to NAS - I did not load it to PC as you have done.  Each rip took somewhere between (apx) 2 minute to 4 minutes, depending on the drives reading speed ability on each specific CD.  In some cases the CD needed extra help to achieve AccurateRip & 3 to 5 attempts might be needed.  I did not time (in hours) the whole process but it took up time over 2 weekends & some hours during the week.

Thanks Mike for putting me straight. I'm going to be a lot more knowledgeable after this process! Right now, I'm finding it all very interesting but certainly not frustrating (yet). I only wish that there was a good guide on the Internet about how to set up a Synology NAS as a music server. Search as I might, there appears to be nothing.

c'est la vie!

I don't believe there is no set up guide, I've seen & read a few.  Your problem is you are not fully at the music server set up stage yet without a streamer,  thats were it all starts.  You are more in the dBpoweramp thing at the moment.

All this fancy calculation of transfer time based on megabits/second and so on seems to be missing two points... firstly a byte contains 10 bits (8 data bits & 2 parity bits) and secondly, the whole transfer process consists of a two way conversation... here's some data,  yes I got that OK, here's some more data....  so the network  will not actually transfer files at the quoted network speed... and don't forget that in an ethernet configuration there's a bunch more data rushing around your network, each packet of which is read and accepted or discarded (no, that's not for me) by your network interface card.  So it all goes a bloomin' site slower than you'd think it should.

Whenever I change the configuration of my NAS's, i.e. move music libraries from one to another (as I do from time to time to free up space or balance the capacity), it can take 3 or 4 days for the data transfer to complete - and that's over a gigabit wired LAN using a gigabit switch and gigabit NAS's.  So with a largish music library, don't expect 'instant'... remember patience is a virtue... and we're all virtuous chaps (and chapesses) on this forum, aren't we?

Roger

Thanks Roger. It's helpful to understand that this is going to take time.  I'm learning fast that patience, persistence and research is called for here.

My confidence level (and ability) isn't that high as I'm moving in an area where my understanding is not well-developed but I'm learning and making progress.

Roger's point about data transfer time based on so called bits per second is well made - and potentially completely totally misleading if one is trying to match ethernet frame speed with application throughput such as sample data rate bandwidth (although Roger in sampled audio land bytes are 8 bits) but the key thing there are layers and layer of encapsulation around the the original payload which typically be sent in bytes(8bits) or words(16bits)... if anyone is interested look up the OSI 7 layer model and the abbreviated model used for TCP/IP and you will see there is  much data added to the payload as we go down the layers..to the bits/second at layer 2

Yes I know the diagram is wrong at Layer 1 for Ethernet and physical Manchester encoding.. but you get the idea of encapsulation..

Point here - I really would not bother about bandwidth calculations and throughput - for home audio systems it really is almost certainly irrelevant if using wired ethernet.and with Wifi the overheads are significantly greater ... as well as the provision of collisions and lost data

nyron59 posted:

Thanks Roger. It's helpful to understand that this is going to take time.  I'm learning fast that patience, persistence and research is called for here.

My confidence level (and ability) isn't that high as I'm moving in an area where my understanding is not well-developed but I'm learning and making progress.

Don't forget, while you're going up the learning curve, make sure you keep an eye on your backup strategy !   ...don't have a backup strategy?   ...get one quick. 

It's all too easy to delete libraries full of music from NAS's and computers... I've learned through years of experience to make sure that whenever I start a file or library copy, I know where I'm going to be able to recover it from if the electricity supply fails or the house burns down or SWMBO unplugs something to do the vacuuming.  Just saying...   

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Roger's point about data transfer time based on so called bits per second is well made - and potentially completely totally misleading if one is trying to match ethernet frame speed with application throughput such as sample data rate bandwidth (although Roger in sampled audio land bytes are 8 bits) but the key thing there are layers and layer of encapsulation around the the original payload which typically be sent in bytes(8bits) or words(16bits)... if anyone is interested look up the OSI 7 layer model and the abbreviated model used for TCP/IP and you will see there is  much data added to the payload as we go down the layers..to the bits/second at layer 2

Yes I know the diagram is wrong at Layer 1 for Ethernet and physical Manchester encoding.. but you get the idea of encapsulation..

Point here - I really would not bother about bandwidth calculations and throughput - for home audio systems it really is almost certainly irrelevant if using wired ethernet.and with Wifi the overheads are significantly greater ... as well as the provision of collisions and lost data

There was me thinking I'd seen the last of the 7-layer OSI model when I retired four years ago !   I didn't understand it then, and still don't, but it looks pretty, and when used in presentations to the board, usually got the point accross... the point usually being "This IT stuff is complicated and we really do need to spend money on this new gizmo system".     Thinking about it, that's roughly the same logic my dealer uses on me today 

 - at least TCP/IP uses lesser layers.. it effectively stops above transport and hands off to the application but with OSI it all gets a bit esoteric above transport  

Mind you I started this lark when it was all networks and data comms and the term IT hadn't even been invented...