Vinyl Question

My layman's understanding is that if what you're hearing correlates with the inner portion of the record, then it's mostly down to decreasing resolution as the stylus approaches the end of the side. This happens because the music becomes ever more "tightly packed" into the groove as the record plays. At 33-1/3 rpm, the record will emit about two seconds of music for every revolution, regardless of where on the record the stylus is situated. At the start of the record, there's about 38" of groove for every 2 seconds of music, whereas at the very end, there's about 19" for the same 2 seconds. These numbers are approximate, but the upshot is that every second of music is encoded into a length of groove that's about twice as long at the beginning of the record as at the end. The inevitable consequence is a progressive lowering of resolution as the record plays. There are other factors as well. For instance, the groove radius gets tighter as the record plays, departing ever further from an idealised straight line, and thus some left channel / right channel asymmetry is introduced, and maybe other artefacts as well.

I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will weigh in. In my own experience, I notice a change on the last couple of tracks of most LPs. I hear it primarily as compression i.e. the average volume gets louder. I often find myself reaching for the volume control at that point, particularly late at night. Aside from that mild inconvenience, I don't find this effect detracts in any way from my enjoyment of the music. I've certainly never heard any of the sonic nasties you describe, which leads me to suspect that something might be amiss with your setup, perhaps tracking weight, anti-skate, or both; or maybe your cartridge is on its last legs? Maybe a visit from your friendly dealer is in order?

Hope this helps

I think there's a lot in what Corry says. I suspect that you may have a slight cartridge misalignment in headshell. Worth checking with a protractor.

Chris

I'd agree with the above explanation, and I think there's the added problem that any muck the stylus has picked up will accumulate more and more towards the end of the LP. I probably need a better Hoover and fewer cats!

Combine everything Cory says with the worst point on the record for lateral tracking angle error and a lateral load as the tracking angle and anti-skate are optimised for the mid-point of the groves.

I used to notice this on my old phonograph (with the doors to control the volume and the handle to wind it up), but I used to put it down to the fact that the needle needed to be changed after every couple of records.

With my newer one, a Kilmax LP12 (no doors & no handle), I can't say that I've ever noticed this effect, so I'd be inclined to go look at the cartridge (or needle?) alignment geometry, the bias and the tracking force, as Corry, Christopher & Huge have suggested.  Shards on chalk board is certainly no longer part of the enjoyment of the vinyl experience...  the shellac experience, mabe, but this new quieter vinyl stuff, definately not.

Roger

Your arm may allow for use of a different alignment - effectively, any pivoted arm and cartridge properly set-up can only be made to be perfectly tangential to the grooves of the LP in 2 places, all other positions being compromised to some degree.  Slighly differing alignments will place these tangential points in different areas of the LP and the areas that are not quite tangential will have varying degrees of tracking error and hence distortion.  It may well be that you are using an alignment that give a high tracking error at the inner section of the LP. An alignment gauge like the Elite Townsend will show you the various distortion arcs depending on the alignment of your cartridge - a very useful tool.

Combine this with a cartridge/stylus that is not at its best on inner grooves and you have a recipe for gritty, jittery, vague and distorted sound. Spherical styli are perhaps at their worst on inner grooves, whereas Shibata or fine-line types can excel here.  For example, one of the finest inner-groove tracking cartridges around is the Audio Technica AT-OC9 MLII which uses a superb quality fine line stylus - it can completely transform unlistenably distorted inner grooves and shallow cut LPs.  The OC9 MLII is not expensive so if inner groove tracing is important you might want to consider it - it is markedly better here than most other cartridges although it can be a bit too bright in an unsympathetic system.

Or a new Hana S low output cart with shibata stylus.

But.....Snaic could tell more about his system......

I currently have:

RP3 -  Elys2 - Stageline N - Nait XS - NACA5 - Credo

Plan is to get RP6 - Exact, but I don't know much about cartridges.  I've always felt my vinyl replay is on the bright side.  Its only some records that get really bad near the center.  Adjusting bias doesn't seem to do anything on these particular records.

SNAIC in the Grass posted:

Is it me or does the last song on many records sound like hell?  I.e. the one closest to the center of the record...why?

Is it the geometry of the arm?  Rotational Speed?  The way the vinyl is made?

Not making this up, many vinyl have their last song on a side sounding like glass shards being dragged on a chalk board.

 

 

You could set your cartridge perpendicular to the inner grooves to see if it's not the angle. Usually you set your cartridge perpendicular at the middle of disk but if you set it at outer disk it's going to be oblique when you approach center and some cartridge don't like that. 

My dealer insists on doing the setup, so I don't touch the cartridge or tracking weight anymore.  I realize I'm near the bottom of the turntable/cartridge stack right now so I'm hoping that moving up to RP6 Exact will put me in a better realm.

SNAIC in the Grass posted:

Adjusting bias doesn't seem to do anything on these particular records.

Sneaky,

Have you tried adjusting the bias on-the-fly? A nice feature of the Rega arms. I do so focusing on the best bass response. All else seems to then fall in place. I find that the best bias position is not Rega's prescribed measure. The biggest issues I have with the inner grooves is noticeable pitch variation on piano and a tendency towards more sibilance - all part of the geometry of TT replay as others have noted.

I know your problem very well, and together with what is said above some records, especially from the beginning of the cd aera, are cut very near to the middle to put one cd on one record.

the other reason was when one of my denons came to the end of it's livetime...

SNAIC in the Grass posted:

I currently have:

RP3 -  Elys2

Have you still got the Rega cartridge alignment protractor? It's a piece of light coloured, thin card, about the size of a postcard, with a spindle-size hole in the top left hand corner.

C.

Yep, but a bit afraid to mess with it...last time I bent the needle...fat fingered I guess.

You don't need to mess with it, you can leave that to your nimble fingered dealer. All I'm asking is, if you place the protractor on the mat and gently lower the stylus on to the cross, does everything all line up then in the way that Rega suggest, with the sides of the Elys parallel to the sides of the headshell?

C.

Yep, it lines up.

Ok. Seems you don't have an alignment problem by Rega's standards. Maybe someone else will be able to help.

C.

Its only some records that are really bad, and I do have a penchant for over-exaggeration.  Also this happens at higher volumes.

I have to use a higher volume in general for records to get the same perceived loudness.  Usually 11ish for vinyl where 9 would do fine for digital. 

I'd say get your dealer round.

C.

Snaic, assuming the deck is perfectly level, VTF and bias are OK, then you should try a different alignment - the Rega single point protractor is not always perfect for all setups and, reading up online about others with similar issues to yours, the change to a different alignment appears to have solved the issue for them.

There are some excellent protractors available online on vinyl sites that you can download for free and print out (make sure your printer is set to print at 100%) - First try Baerwald perhaps?

Ok Richard, there are alternative alignments but what about the self-alleged fat fingers?! Hence my dealer involvement suggestion.

C.

Chris, yes, perhaps best done by the dealer if the idea of doing it oneself is daunting.  However, I would not discourage learning to do these things for oneself.  just remember to remove the arm from the deck before you do loosening or any final tightening of the headshell bolts holding the cartridge - the Rega arms are pretty tough but that way you won't damage the arm bearings.

When I first had my Roksan with an Ortofon Cadenza I used to notice a slight muddling on the inner edge - one dealer told me Ortofons are not the best trackers - since i've had the Dynavectors it's been fine.

Regards,

Lindsay

I think this is a mechanical problem mainly caused by the tracking angle at the end of the side. This does not imply the cartridge is set up incorrectly. I always understood that a good record producer would arrange the running order of the tracks so that on the whole the quieter, less dyanamic songs were towards the end of the side. This is not always apparent on CD but if you look at vinyl material then in my experience this usually (but not always) holds true. If more dyanamic songs are used in the last track they do tend to distort more which may be what you are experiencing. Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits is a good example of this. I recall CD being launched with this album, but the running order is cut for vinyl with "Why worry" at the end of side 1, and the title track at the end of side 2, both are much quieter songs compared with the rest of the album. I think the production on this album sounds superb on vinyl and it is this type of care which is the reason why.

Just my penny's worth!

Mike

Well, the album is question that has spurred me to post:  Kris Kristofferson / Jesus Was a Capricorn

By golly if "Why Me?" isn't the last song on side2, and it doesn't sound good at all.

There are some very quiet, subtle guitar nuances in this song.